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No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike. I assure you, there are places on Earth that are effecti

No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike. I assure you, there are places on Earth that are effectively as remote and frontier-like as Mars, where you can comfortably die, knowing that no assistance was coming or possible. If your goal is to make Mars hospitable, I suggest you do some back of the envelope math to see how much energy it would take to divert some water comets onto Mars and then to terraform it to create some sort of rudimentary atmosphere. That should hopefully rid you of the naivete and hubris about space frontierism.

ceejayoz 9y ago
That's a really condescending post. I camp, I hike in the woods daily, and I've been to some pretty remote places. I still feel the pull of Mars. It's not just the remoteness of it for me - it's the idea of influencing a new society from the ground up, of doing something unprecedented.
- antisthenes 9y ago
  As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? Escaping all the problems of Earth to try and rebuild a society from first principles? You can pretend I was condescending and downvote all you like, but it doesn't change the facts that I stated. It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? What was arrogant in OP's post? They said they personally yearn for a new frontier, and that Mars satisfies it for them. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain.
    - antisthenes 9y ago
      What was condescending about my post? > It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain. There's nothing stopping you from doing that in the inhospitable areas on Earth. If you bring the money and the plan, most governments will let you make a planned city. This is precisely the arrogance I was talking about. Thinking it would be any different because of the extremely inhospitable conditions. If you don't see the arrogance here - I'm afraid there's nothing I can do to convince you of it. It's simply a difference of viewpoints.
      - sqeaky 9y ago
        The condescending things about your post were your implicit assumptions that the other poster was incapable of basic math, the presumption that as soon as he saw the basic the math he would turn to your way of thinking, the presumption that your way of thinking was clearly superior and finally calling him naive. He desires to be part of something grand and huge at the beginning of an era, then you insult and deride his grand dream by belittling it and telling him to make a planned city. It seems to me that he would rather be the lowliest janitor on Mars than a Mayor of planned city here and you cannot fathom how that could be, so you presume he is wrong or confused He wants something that is impossible now. This is a common human goal. You fail to understand human nature then claim to have all the answers. Your points may all have been correct, but they were not the points that were needed. I am not saying either of you are wrong or right, but you clearly brought plenty of arrogance and condescension.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        > What was condescending about my post? Gee, probably the "If you'd just go camping you'd see your lifelong dream is bullshit" and "You're naïve and hubristic" bits.
        antisthenes 9y ago
        Clearly, you're fine putting words in other people's mouths and making subjective claims about the nature of one's post. You're fine rejecting my arguments for why his post is arrogant, but somehow yours about why my post is condescending are valid. That's a toxic and arrogant way of arguing, so I'm not surprised you're projecting something I didn't say. Honestly I would have expected better from an HN audience, but techies are still people... Also quite indicative of what would happen on Mars.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    >It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. >It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. 100% agree on both points. Spacex is just selling dreams. Sadly, people today are so enamored with technology that they easily buy into such dreams sold by these companies....
    - enraged_camel 9y ago
      Dreams are how major progress is made, which is important when people realize incremental progress just won't cut it. "I have a dream." -Martin Luther King Jr.
      - babyrainbow 9y ago
        Sure sure..But those are ones own dreams. Not the ones sold to you in exchange for investment.... Big difference pal.
        ceejayoz 9y ago
        If I dream to be a writer, it's not a bad thing if someone's out there selling pens and paper. I've dreamt about Mars colonization long before SpaceX existed.
  - adekok 9y ago
    > It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. Why? And I'll note that insults and ad hominems don't make a rational argument. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. No one said that. If your best arguments are insults and straw men... well, it's best to avoid a technical forum like HN where there are people trained in rationality, math, and rocket science.
adekok 9y ago
> No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike. Was the article about taking an overnight hike on Mars? Was my response about taking an overnight hike in the Sahara? No. So why do you feel the need to lie about it? > I assure you, there are places on Earth that are effectively as remote and frontier-like as Mars, where you can comfortably die, knowing that no assistance was coming or possible. You're arguing against a point I didn't make. Why? > If your goal is to make Mars hospitable, I suggest you do some back of the envelope math to see how much energy it would take to divert some water comets onto Mars and then to terraform it to create some sort of rudimentary atmosphere. Which is a suggestion, not a rational argument. > That should hopefully rid you of the naivete and hubris about space frontierism. Is it really that necessary to engage in ad hominems? Apparently it's now OK on HN...

ceejayoz 9y ago

That's a really condescending post. I camp, I hike in the woods daily, and I've been to some pretty remote places. I still feel the pull of Mars. It's not just the remoteness of it for me - it's the idea of influencing a new society from the ground up, of doing something unprecedented.

antisthenes 9y ago
As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? Escaping all the problems of Earth to try and rebuild a society from first principles? You can pretend I was condescending and downvote all you like, but it doesn't change the facts that I stated. It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? What was arrogant in OP's post? They said they personally yearn for a new frontier, and that Mars satisfies it for them. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain.
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    What was condescending about my post? > It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain. There's nothing stopping you from doing that in the inhospitable areas on Earth. If you bring the money and the plan, most governments will let you make a planned city. This is precisely the arrogance I was talking about. Thinking it would be any different because of the extremely inhospitable conditions. If you don't see the arrogance here - I'm afraid there's nothing I can do to convince you of it. It's simply a difference of viewpoints.
    - sqeaky 9y ago
      The condescending things about your post were your implicit assumptions that the other poster was incapable of basic math, the presumption that as soon as he saw the basic the math he would turn to your way of thinking, the presumption that your way of thinking was clearly superior and finally calling him naive. He desires to be part of something grand and huge at the beginning of an era, then you insult and deride his grand dream by belittling it and telling him to make a planned city. It seems to me that he would rather be the lowliest janitor on Mars than a Mayor of planned city here and you cannot fathom how that could be, so you presume he is wrong or confused He wants something that is impossible now. This is a common human goal. You fail to understand human nature then claim to have all the answers. Your points may all have been correct, but they were not the points that were needed. I am not saying either of you are wrong or right, but you clearly brought plenty of arrogance and condescension.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      > What was condescending about my post? Gee, probably the "If you'd just go camping you'd see your lifelong dream is bullshit" and "You're naïve and hubristic" bits.
      - antisthenes 9y ago
        Clearly, you're fine putting words in other people's mouths and making subjective claims about the nature of one's post. You're fine rejecting my arguments for why his post is arrogant, but somehow yours about why my post is condescending are valid. That's a toxic and arrogant way of arguing, so I'm not surprised you're projecting something I didn't say. Honestly I would have expected better from an HN audience, but techies are still people... Also quite indicative of what would happen on Mars.
- babyrainbow 9y ago
  >It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. >It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. 100% agree on both points. Spacex is just selling dreams. Sadly, people today are so enamored with technology that they easily buy into such dreams sold by these companies....
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    Dreams are how major progress is made, which is important when people realize incremental progress just won't cut it. "I have a dream." -Martin Luther King Jr.
    - babyrainbow 9y ago
      Sure sure..But those are ones own dreams. Not the ones sold to you in exchange for investment.... Big difference pal.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        If I dream to be a writer, it's not a bad thing if someone's out there selling pens and paper. I've dreamt about Mars colonization long before SpaceX existed.
- adekok 9y ago
  > It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. Why? And I'll note that insults and ad hominems don't make a rational argument. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. No one said that. If your best arguments are insults and straw men... well, it's best to avoid a technical forum like HN where there are people trained in rationality, math, and rocket science.

adekok 9y ago

> No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike. Was the article about taking an overnight hike on Mars? Was my response about taking an overnight hike in the Sahara? No. So why do you feel the need to lie about it? > I assure you, there are places on Earth that are effectively as remote and frontier-like as Mars, where you can comfortably die, knowing that no assistance was coming or possible. You're arguing against a point I didn't make. Why? > If your goal is to make Mars hospitable, I suggest you do some back of the envelope math to see how much energy it would take to divert some water comets onto Mars and then to terraform it to create some sort of rudimentary atmosphere. Which is a suggestion, not a rational argument. > That should hopefully rid you of the naivete and hubris about space frontierism. Is it really that necessary to engage in ad hominems? Apparently it's now OK on HN...