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This article is total bullshit and so is the "dual education" model. "Duale Ausbildung" has nothing to do with universities, if you go that route you spend up

• lispm 9y ago
  Does not seem that you know much about German education. Duales Studium is the equivalent dual track education for University education. The company I work for participates since several years and they are very happy to do so.
  • Zahlmeister 9y ago
    I probably know more than you, or at least I have better reading comprehension: "By contrast, countries like Germany pursue a “dual educational” model that blends classroom education with on-the-job training through apprenticeships, equipping young people not bound for university with practical labor-market skills. From the beginning of the journey from school to work, dual-system participants establish close relationships with employers. Companies sign contracts with young people (typically around age 15 or 16) and provide them an hourly wage just below that of an entry-level worker. On-the-job training typically comprises two-thirds of the curriculum in the dual system." This is clearly referring to "Duale Ausbildung", not "Duales Studium". The vast majority of people that study at university ("Studium") never do "Duales Studium", that's more of a novelty.
    • lispm 9y ago
      Dual education in Germany is not only about apprenticeships. Your knowledge seems to be even more limited than the author's. There are several dual education tracks, some advanced ones exist since the 70s. Clearly not a novelty. It's also not about the 'majority' of people, since the German education system is diverse and does provide various alternatives to the usual/classical University education. There are even many dual education offerings which integrate Ausbildung and Studium. I personally hired people who were from dual track education in software development a decade ago.
      • Zahlmeister 9y ago
        You're moving the goalpost. The article is referring to "Duale Ausbildung", which works as I described and has nothing to do with university education. "Duales Studium" in the modern sense is a novelty, clocking in at less than 4% in 2014 (but growing). http://www.zeit.de/2014/20/duales-studium http://www.zeit.de/2014/20/duales-studium The article does talk about the majority, that's the whole point. "Duale Ausbildung" and regular "Hochschule/Fachhochschule" are the core of the German system. Whatever else there is isn't really relevant to the debate.
        • lispm 9y ago
          Check your top comment. Duales Studium is hardly a novelty. As I said it's actually from the 70s. What is relevant to the debate? Relevant is that the Dual Education model im Germany is diverse and offers different tracks for advanced degrees. The Ausbildung is not the end of education, but for many it is the entry into further adavnced education offerings. Let's look at your original claims: * the dual education is bullshit Says it all. * Duale Ausbildung" has nothing to do with universities In reality the Ausblidung enables further education offerings. * Worse, if you don't buy into the "dual education" thing, you can't get most of these jobs. Ensures that people actually know something about their jobs, beyond training on the job. * Don't trust German unemployment statistics A rather useless recommendation. * it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university. That's wrong. The dual education model addresses people who want a more practical education. Making a choice does not mean 'weeding out'. The education model allows people later to move on to more advanced education tracks and many do. So your arguments were mostly unfounded and failed to see the dual education system in the broader context.
• jojoo 9y ago
  > We're not talking about great jobs either, it's most jobs that don't require university education. A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less. Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training. Example: If you learn as an Electrician for Energy and Houses at a big construction company, the only thing you might do is chopping cable canals and maybe wiring wall sockets. Both could be learned in 6 Weeks, no question. But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared. > Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university. Being a teacher at the very bottom of the german school system, the school formerly known as Sonderschule I 100% agree.
  • Zahlmeister 9y ago
    > Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training. Yes, they learn a lot of stuff they won't need for the actual job they will perform. If they switch jobs, they probably won't need it either, unless it's a very related job. For instance, if they become a painter, they learn all kinds of painting techniques that they will never apply. That's all fine and dandy, except if they just want to work painting houses, why they have to spend three years as an apprentice? > But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared. If you already knew the one thing, chances are you could've quickly learned the other thing as well. Otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it
    • 9y ago
• Thamiel 9y ago
  > This article is total bullshit and so is the "dual education" model. This article is about the american system, and compared to taking on student debt, earning an apprentices' salary is an improvement. >A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less. Well, german workmanship has a good reputation internationally, so I would be careful to meddle with a system that produces adequate results. > Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university. We have parents suing the teachers of ten-year-olds for the grades they give, because of the impact it can have on their careers. "One of the most discriminatory systems in the world"? really? Education is free including university, low-income families can get tutors for their children paid for by the Arbeitsamt. About "weeding out people": Not everybody has the ability to study at a university, so to prevent people from wasting years of their life and paying the opportunity cost that goes with it, it is best to give those people a clear signal which career paths are open to them and which are not. The parents suing the schools in the link you provided are doing their children a disservice. If you force a child onto a school type above its level of competence, the child will suffer. Being the worst in class is not exactly good for the developing psyche, having no free time because the child needs to study and visit tutors simply to survive academically also takes its toll. And to what end? To start an apprenticeship with abitur? To study at university for a couple of years until you fail to many exams to continue?