7 ms·

There are some lovely comments about here about how the poor are stupid, they deserve it, etc. While discussing this, we should also consider that in situations

There are some lovely comments about here about how the poor are stupid, they deserve it, etc. While discussing this, we should also consider that in situations where there is very little to lose (e.g. going to die soon anyhow, little chance of a successful life) risky behaviors make more strategic sense than if the subject had the promise of better opportunities. Also, the pleasures available to the impoverished are by definition fewer and smaller than the wealthy. Cigarettes should appear undesirable by those than can easily afford superior enjoyable experiences. A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5. The poor aren't stupid. They are just making the best of poor hand they were dealt.

Pxtl 9y ago
Not to mention self-medicating. Cigarettes are expensive but they're cheaper than dealing with mental health issues for the uninsured.
- quantdev 9y ago
  Exactly. Nicotine has mental health benefits (e.g., schizophrenia ) and is a nootropic, stimulant, and feel-good drug. By smoking, the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now. Calling them stupid or irrational just makes too many assumptions about their opportunities, situations, and goals.
  - LanceH 9y ago
    "the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" This also describes how a lot of people are poor.
    - CryptoFascist 9y ago
      No, it really doesn't. Depending on one's discount function, such a trade is perfectly rational. This thinking also reeks of the 'just world fallacy', in which the predicament of the poor is deemed to be a deserved consequence of their moral failings.
    - angersock 9y ago
      No, being born into poor families with poor job opportunities in poor areas is how a lot of people are poor. You should expand your horizons.
      - pc2g4d 9y ago
        Maybe those are one and the same thing---being born into a poor family, you inherit the attitudes that kept that family poor. At least, I expect that's a contributing factor. Obviously there's more to it.
    - theothermkn 9y ago
      > "the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" > This also describes how a lot of people are poor. I suppose we should be cheered by your qualification "a lot of," since it seems to indicate that you at least have to acknowledge your growing awareness that some, if not the majority nor vast majority, of the poor are there for structural reasons, rather than shortsightedness. What of those who are there for reasons other than shortsightedness? What of those for whom shortsightedness is a result of mental health issues? What of those who can see ahead, but see no bright future and are making rational choices in the face of that? Fortunately, having qualified your remarks in the way you have, you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed. I wish you the best in that.
      - LanceH 9y ago
        "you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed" I don't think I dismissed anyone. People make bad decisions on things they are in control of and it makes them more poor. The rich have more self control -- maybe not. Those with good self control tend to be better off -- definitely. I'm all for the argument that smoking is a rational choice for someone without a lot of money. There is also the compelling argument that poor impulse control, being poor and smoking have a strong correlation. Maybe even as a common cause for poverty and smoking. Having watched friends spend entire paychecks drinking, smoking, having unprotected sex (with the inevitable consequences), buying new camaros at blistering interest rates, fleetingly fashionable clothes -- I somehow think that my choice to eat mountains of rice and beans and live with roommates somehow had something to do with my relative success. Sure, you can tell some people it's not their fault, but absolving everyone of responsibility for their choices is not helping them at all.
    - ShriekBob 9y ago
      If you actually believe this, you have never been poor.
      - sqeaky 9y ago
        Perhaps not all people are poor because of bad decisions, but perhaps at least some are.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Perhaps we could sell nicotine patches and gum without a prescription? Also, there are substitutes: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/harm-reduction-approach-helps-sweden-butt-out-smoking-428795413.html http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/harm-reduc... "Why have Swedes stopped smoking? Because Sweden has adopted a harm-reduction strategy: it has largely replaced deadly cigarettes with a product that supplies users with both nicotine and tobacco yet doesn’t increase the odds of dying the way smoking does. That product is called "snus" (rhymes with goose). A modern iteration of snuff, snus are little pouches of moist tobacco placed under the upper lip. Scandinavians have been ingesting nicotine via smokeless tobacco since the early 18th century, a habit that changed only during the Second World War, when cigarettes became popular. Smoking peaked in 1980 in Sweden at 34 per cent of the population. Since then, the growing awareness of the dangers of smoking has brought about a steady, year-over-year reduction in the smoking rate, just as it has in much of the western world."
    - _acme 9y ago
      Nicotine patches and gum are available without a prescription in the U.S. Did you intend to be sarcastic?
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        No, just unaware. I don't smoke or consume nicotine products.
  - smokethrowaway 9y ago
    Wait, what? I've never felt any of those effects from smoking, and I made sure to inhale deeply. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Are there people who are genetically unable to get the high?
    - quantdev 9y ago
      That's very strange that you've never felt stimulation or increased focus from nicotine! It's possible that you have some genetic variation that causes that or it's possible you're just not self aware, but I couldn't say which. For an incredible overview of the benefits and harms of nicotine, see Gwen: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
      - k__ 9y ago
        Same here. Never got into smoking tobacco or weed, both just made me feel bad.
      - smokethrowaway 9y ago
        This ... is truly a bizarre revelation. I had no idea people actually got such physical pleasure and stimulation from smoking. [1] I guess it's one of those things that's so obvious no one actually says it. If you think about it, that benefit is never mentioned in debates about smoking and the appropriate government response. I know because I aggressively scour for such upsides, being the "hipster contrarian". Had I known about the pleasure and stimulation of smoking[3], you can bet I would bring it up every time! Reminds me of "What Universal Human Experiences Are You Missing Without Realizing It?" [2] Now you might ask, "Did it never seem strange to you that people would suck this disgusting tar into their lungs if it didn't at least feel good or something?" Well, no. IME, people indulge in a lot of BS without obvious explanation. For example, people claim to like the taste of alcohol[ic drinks], and that is outright ridiculous -- or so I thought, but it was another case of [2]. Also, modern art. My model of smokers was roughly that, they start doing it to look cool, and then get hooked, so that they have to smoke to fend off the pain of withdrawal. I didn't think the act could feel good itself! Now that I think about it, people don't mention the good feeling of other drugs in debates about them either. For alcohol, I had a good explanation: those benefits are taboo, and people use the purported taste and refinement of their "fave bev" as "intellectual covering fire" for what they really want, the alcohol high. In conclusion, the phenomenon in [2] is serious business! [1] See, for example, the responses to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14569775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14569775 [2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-experiences-are-you-missing-without-realizing-it/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-ex... [3] Incidentally, I read Bostrom's Superintelligence, where he mentions writing the book while being powered by caffeine and nicotine, but I wrote that off (like most purported benefits of smoking) as psychosomatic.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wmeredith 9y ago
  Nicotine is also an appetite suppressant. During my leaner days I would often choose cigarettes over food when I could not afford both. (I am no longer poor, nor a smoker. I am about 20 pounds heavier though.)
- pasbesoin 9y ago
  Nicotine is a drug. And some small studies have hinted at the benefits it confers (along with the risks, both of itself and in the delivery medium, burned (and processed, and adulterated) tobacco). Their are also significant social and signaling roles. Until we can have an honest conversation about this, and actually embrace and continuing objective science on it, we aren't going to find the honest and effective solution -- whatever that may be.
chc 9y ago
> A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5. There's nothing luxurious about smelling bad and getting a wicked cough. Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.
- kodablah 9y ago
  > Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. Completely subjective. I'm not sure the purpose of your post. Are you telling everyone what is more luxurious to them or just giving your singular opinion for yourself? Assuming the latter, it appears to add little to the discussion.
  - chc 9y ago
    I'm offering a reasoned analysis of what the actual effects of smoking a cigarette are and whether those things are widely considered luxurious. If you're addicted, sure, smoking offers a great luxury in taking the money off your back for a while. If you're not addicted and don't have some other physical need (e.g. untreated mental illness), it offers a pretty mild buzz and a lot of negatives. But regardless, wouldn't this be more appropriate as a reply to the parent, who made the initial claim that cigarettes are luxurious and didn't present any reasons for it?
  - lukas099 9y ago
    The assertion which GP responded to -- that cigarettes are luxurious -- is completely subjective as well.
- cloverich 9y ago
  There's some subjective aspect to this as well. I smoked off and on for over 10 years. I quit several years ago and don't want for money. But still, to be 100% honest, I've yet to find anything as enjoyable as a cigarette. Its like a tiny espresso that gives an instant rush that I can revisit as often as I'd like. It fits into my 5 minute break mindset. It gives me a reason to (briefly) talk to people I don't know. I could go on, but overall I wasn't just addicted to them. I honestly enjoyed many things about them. If they weren't so unhealthy, I would be happily smoking today. And I would gladly trade a great majority of the other pleasures in my life for them. I say this because there's two themes so far in these comments, but I didn't notice this one. For many people, smoking is a legitimately enjoyable, cheap experience, on top of being insanely addictive. Its not surprising that they are so hard to be rid of.
hellbanner 9y ago
Remember the power of marketing: Freud's nephew hired by Cigarette companiest o make cigarettes "sexy" for women in USA (previously a taboo). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_Edward_Bernays#Cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_... More on how this guy shaped modern advertising in Century of Self https://vimeo.com/10245146 https://vimeo.com/10245146
joveian 9y ago
A related thing that is often ignored is that nicotine is a stimulant and makes it easier to put your body through physical abuse that it otherwise wouldn't take. Some health conditions are improved by nicotine but I suspect in many cases it clearly makes things worse but also makes it possible to work.

Pxtl 9y ago

Not to mention self-medicating. Cigarettes are expensive but they're cheaper than dealing with mental health issues for the uninsured.

quantdev 9y ago
Exactly. Nicotine has mental health benefits (e.g., schizophrenia ) and is a nootropic, stimulant, and feel-good drug. By smoking, the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now. Calling them stupid or irrational just makes too many assumptions about their opportunities, situations, and goals.
- LanceH 9y ago
  "the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" This also describes how a lot of people are poor.
  - CryptoFascist 9y ago
    No, it really doesn't. Depending on one's discount function, such a trade is perfectly rational. This thinking also reeks of the 'just world fallacy', in which the predicament of the poor is deemed to be a deserved consequence of their moral failings.
  - angersock 9y ago
    No, being born into poor families with poor job opportunities in poor areas is how a lot of people are poor. You should expand your horizons.
    - pc2g4d 9y ago
      Maybe those are one and the same thing---being born into a poor family, you inherit the attitudes that kept that family poor. At least, I expect that's a contributing factor. Obviously there's more to it.
  - theothermkn 9y ago
    > "the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" > This also describes how a lot of people are poor. I suppose we should be cheered by your qualification "a lot of," since it seems to indicate that you at least have to acknowledge your growing awareness that some, if not the majority nor vast majority, of the poor are there for structural reasons, rather than shortsightedness. What of those who are there for reasons other than shortsightedness? What of those for whom shortsightedness is a result of mental health issues? What of those who can see ahead, but see no bright future and are making rational choices in the face of that? Fortunately, having qualified your remarks in the way you have, you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed. I wish you the best in that.
    - LanceH 9y ago
      "you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed" I don't think I dismissed anyone. People make bad decisions on things they are in control of and it makes them more poor. The rich have more self control -- maybe not. Those with good self control tend to be better off -- definitely. I'm all for the argument that smoking is a rational choice for someone without a lot of money. There is also the compelling argument that poor impulse control, being poor and smoking have a strong correlation. Maybe even as a common cause for poverty and smoking. Having watched friends spend entire paychecks drinking, smoking, having unprotected sex (with the inevitable consequences), buying new camaros at blistering interest rates, fleetingly fashionable clothes -- I somehow think that my choice to eat mountains of rice and beans and live with roommates somehow had something to do with my relative success. Sure, you can tell some people it's not their fault, but absolving everyone of responsibility for their choices is not helping them at all.
  - ShriekBob 9y ago
    If you actually believe this, you have never been poor.
    - sqeaky 9y ago
      Perhaps not all people are poor because of bad decisions, but perhaps at least some are.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Perhaps we could sell nicotine patches and gum without a prescription? Also, there are substitutes: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/harm-reduction-approach-helps-sweden-butt-out-smoking-428795413.html http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/harm-reduc... "Why have Swedes stopped smoking? Because Sweden has adopted a harm-reduction strategy: it has largely replaced deadly cigarettes with a product that supplies users with both nicotine and tobacco yet doesn’t increase the odds of dying the way smoking does. That product is called "snus" (rhymes with goose). A modern iteration of snuff, snus are little pouches of moist tobacco placed under the upper lip. Scandinavians have been ingesting nicotine via smokeless tobacco since the early 18th century, a habit that changed only during the Second World War, when cigarettes became popular. Smoking peaked in 1980 in Sweden at 34 per cent of the population. Since then, the growing awareness of the dangers of smoking has brought about a steady, year-over-year reduction in the smoking rate, just as it has in much of the western world."
  - _acme 9y ago
    Nicotine patches and gum are available without a prescription in the U.S. Did you intend to be sarcastic?
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      No, just unaware. I don't smoke or consume nicotine products.
- smokethrowaway 9y ago
  Wait, what? I've never felt any of those effects from smoking, and I made sure to inhale deeply. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Are there people who are genetically unable to get the high?
  - quantdev 9y ago
    That's very strange that you've never felt stimulation or increased focus from nicotine! It's possible that you have some genetic variation that causes that or it's possible you're just not self aware, but I couldn't say which. For an incredible overview of the benefits and harms of nicotine, see Gwen: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
    - k__ 9y ago
      Same here. Never got into smoking tobacco or weed, both just made me feel bad.
    - smokethrowaway 9y ago
      This ... is truly a bizarre revelation. I had no idea people actually got such physical pleasure and stimulation from smoking. [1] I guess it's one of those things that's so obvious no one actually says it. If you think about it, that benefit is never mentioned in debates about smoking and the appropriate government response. I know because I aggressively scour for such upsides, being the "hipster contrarian". Had I known about the pleasure and stimulation of smoking[3], you can bet I would bring it up every time! Reminds me of "What Universal Human Experiences Are You Missing Without Realizing It?" [2] Now you might ask, "Did it never seem strange to you that people would suck this disgusting tar into their lungs if it didn't at least feel good or something?" Well, no. IME, people indulge in a lot of BS without obvious explanation. For example, people claim to like the taste of alcohol[ic drinks], and that is outright ridiculous -- or so I thought, but it was another case of [2]. Also, modern art. My model of smokers was roughly that, they start doing it to look cool, and then get hooked, so that they have to smoke to fend off the pain of withdrawal. I didn't think the act could feel good itself! Now that I think about it, people don't mention the good feeling of other drugs in debates about them either. For alcohol, I had a good explanation: those benefits are taboo, and people use the purported taste and refinement of their "fave bev" as "intellectual covering fire" for what they really want, the alcohol high. In conclusion, the phenomenon in [2] is serious business! [1] See, for example, the responses to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14569775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14569775 [2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-experiences-are-you-missing-without-realizing-it/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-ex... [3] Incidentally, I read Bostrom's Superintelligence, where he mentions writing the book while being powered by caffeine and nicotine, but I wrote that off (like most purported benefits of smoking) as psychosomatic.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wmeredith 9y ago
Nicotine is also an appetite suppressant. During my leaner days I would often choose cigarettes over food when I could not afford both. (I am no longer poor, nor a smoker. I am about 20 pounds heavier though.)
pasbesoin 9y ago
Nicotine is a drug. And some small studies have hinted at the benefits it confers (along with the risks, both of itself and in the delivery medium, burned (and processed, and adulterated) tobacco). Their are also significant social and signaling roles. Until we can have an honest conversation about this, and actually embrace and continuing objective science on it, we aren't going to find the honest and effective solution -- whatever that may be.

chc 9y ago

> A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5. There's nothing luxurious about smelling bad and getting a wicked cough. Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.

kodablah 9y ago
> Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. Completely subjective. I'm not sure the purpose of your post. Are you telling everyone what is more luxurious to them or just giving your singular opinion for yourself? Assuming the latter, it appears to add little to the discussion.
- chc 9y ago
  I'm offering a reasoned analysis of what the actual effects of smoking a cigarette are and whether those things are widely considered luxurious. If you're addicted, sure, smoking offers a great luxury in taking the money off your back for a while. If you're not addicted and don't have some other physical need (e.g. untreated mental illness), it offers a pretty mild buzz and a lot of negatives. But regardless, wouldn't this be more appropriate as a reply to the parent, who made the initial claim that cigarettes are luxurious and didn't present any reasons for it?
- lukas099 9y ago
  The assertion which GP responded to -- that cigarettes are luxurious -- is completely subjective as well.
cloverich 9y ago
There's some subjective aspect to this as well. I smoked off and on for over 10 years. I quit several years ago and don't want for money. But still, to be 100% honest, I've yet to find anything as enjoyable as a cigarette. Its like a tiny espresso that gives an instant rush that I can revisit as often as I'd like. It fits into my 5 minute break mindset. It gives me a reason to (briefly) talk to people I don't know. I could go on, but overall I wasn't just addicted to them. I honestly enjoyed many things about them. If they weren't so unhealthy, I would be happily smoking today. And I would gladly trade a great majority of the other pleasures in my life for them. I say this because there's two themes so far in these comments, but I didn't notice this one. For many people, smoking is a legitimately enjoyable, cheap experience, on top of being insanely addictive. Its not surprising that they are so hard to be rid of.

hellbanner 9y ago

Remember the power of marketing: Freud's nephew hired by Cigarette companiest o make cigarettes "sexy" for women in USA (previously a taboo). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_Edward_Bernays#Cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_... More on how this guy shaped modern advertising in Century of Self https://vimeo.com/10245146 https://vimeo.com/10245146

joveian 9y ago

A related thing that is often ignored is that nicotine is a stimulant and makes it easier to put your body through physical abuse that it otherwise wouldn't take. Some health conditions are improved by nicotine but I suspect in many cases it clearly makes things worse but also makes it possible to work.