8 ms·

I totally agree that stratification at age 10 is pretty terrible, but stratification in universities seems like a very different story. At college age, people

I totally agree that stratification at age 10 is pretty terrible, but stratification in universities seems like a very different story. At college age, people are much more capable of making their own decisions, and their actual capabilities and weaknesses have also become clearer and more stable. And it's not like going to a Fachhochschule is going to set someone up for a hard life as being assigned to a Hauptschule pretty much does.

igk 9y ago
Fachhochschule gets a bad rep from snobs, but having worked with graduates, they often beat university grads in application fields. It's just a different focus
- phreeza 9y ago
  I agree. The point I was trying to make was that the choices between strata at the post-high school level are all quite good, unlike the choices that are presented at age 10.
- Semaphor 9y ago
  Having started out at a University and switched to a Fachhochschule (Bachelor CS for both) I can say that there weren't more practical things at the FH, but everything was simply way easier. Math was simpler (mostly because it was usually applied as opposed to proofs, so I guess math was indeed more practical) and the CS courses were way below what the university offered. So I'd say it's certainly understandable when people look down on FH (because it can easily be the case that it's subpar)
kharms 9y ago
>I totally agree that stratification at age 10 is pretty terrible, but stratification in universities seems like a very different story. What would it add that the choice of university and major doesn't? The math kids at MIT aren't so different from each other.
- phreeza 9y ago
  I guess you could achieve the same effect with different majors, but in our system for example you can study majors that carry the same name, eg mechanical engineering, with a more theoretical or applied focus depending on which type of university you go to.
sotojuan 9y ago
It's not rare for college students to spend their first or even second year of college with an undecided major while they find what they're interested in. It happened to me (and I still managed to graduate on time). In fact, that's what a lot of people like about college and it's why you see college described as a "place to experiment". > their actual capabilities and weaknesses have also become clearer and more stable Also not so sure about this. I've met MANY people who went in 99% sure of college major A but after a few classes and an internship they found out they suck at it/hate it.
Thamiel 9y ago
Could you elaborate why you think stratification is a bad thing? I think at age 10 you can robustly determine whether or not a student has the abilities for serious academic work, and I believe it's best for the students to get an education that's appropriate for their talents/needs. Besides, the system (as I experienced it in southern germany) is quite permeable, so even if the sorting is not perfect, students with the necessary academic ability have many paths to university.
- watwut 9y ago
  At that age, brain still develops and relative ordering of children still change. The lowest performers are unlikely to become best, but the middle still changes significantly. Otherwise said, it is too soon to determine how good they will be as adults and what they will be good at. Also, at that age, your ability to learn climbs very high just as function of age.
  - Thamiel 9y ago
    > The lowest performers are unlikely to become best, but the middle still changes significantly. As long as the middle gets sorted into the Realschule, there's no problem ;-) But more seriously, according to wikipedia[0] IQ is relatively stable beginning at an age of approx. 11 years, so if we compensate for the measurement error with a permeable system I only see two problems: As you mentioned, at this age the brain devolops so rapidly that being the oldest in the class gives students a measurable advantage, but that is an issue for any school system, and as I said in a neighboring comment, overly ambitions parents are meddling too much, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon and a problem unto itself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Age
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Be very careful extrapolating from Wikipedia on IQ. The science is subtle and not at all as stable as the encyclopedia makes it sound. One of the reasons people in the field talk about this stuff so gingerly is the proclivity laypeople have for taking half-baked science and turning it into public policy.

igk 9y ago

Fachhochschule gets a bad rep from snobs, but having worked with graduates, they often beat university grads in application fields. It's just a different focus

phreeza 9y ago
I agree. The point I was trying to make was that the choices between strata at the post-high school level are all quite good, unlike the choices that are presented at age 10.
Semaphor 9y ago
Having started out at a University and switched to a Fachhochschule (Bachelor CS for both) I can say that there weren't more practical things at the FH, but everything was simply way easier. Math was simpler (mostly because it was usually applied as opposed to proofs, so I guess math was indeed more practical) and the CS courses were way below what the university offered. So I'd say it's certainly understandable when people look down on FH (because it can easily be the case that it's subpar)

kharms 9y ago

>I totally agree that stratification at age 10 is pretty terrible, but stratification in universities seems like a very different story. What would it add that the choice of university and major doesn't? The math kids at MIT aren't so different from each other.

phreeza 9y ago
I guess you could achieve the same effect with different majors, but in our system for example you can study majors that carry the same name, eg mechanical engineering, with a more theoretical or applied focus depending on which type of university you go to.

sotojuan 9y ago

It's not rare for college students to spend their first or even second year of college with an undecided major while they find what they're interested in. It happened to me (and I still managed to graduate on time). In fact, that's what a lot of people like about college and it's why you see college described as a "place to experiment". > their actual capabilities and weaknesses have also become clearer and more stable Also not so sure about this. I've met MANY people who went in 99% sure of college major A but after a few classes and an internship they found out they suck at it/hate it.

Thamiel 9y ago

Could you elaborate why you think stratification is a bad thing? I think at age 10 you can robustly determine whether or not a student has the abilities for serious academic work, and I believe it's best for the students to get an education that's appropriate for their talents/needs. Besides, the system (as I experienced it in southern germany) is quite permeable, so even if the sorting is not perfect, students with the necessary academic ability have many paths to university.

watwut 9y ago
At that age, brain still develops and relative ordering of children still change. The lowest performers are unlikely to become best, but the middle still changes significantly. Otherwise said, it is too soon to determine how good they will be as adults and what they will be good at. Also, at that age, your ability to learn climbs very high just as function of age.
- Thamiel 9y ago
  > The lowest performers are unlikely to become best, but the middle still changes significantly. As long as the middle gets sorted into the Realschule, there's no problem ;-) But more seriously, according to wikipedia[0] IQ is relatively stable beginning at an age of approx. 11 years, so if we compensate for the measurement error with a permeable system I only see two problems: As you mentioned, at this age the brain devolops so rapidly that being the oldest in the class gives students a measurable advantage, but that is an issue for any school system, and as I said in a neighboring comment, overly ambitions parents are meddling too much, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon and a problem unto itself. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Age
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Be very careful extrapolating from Wikipedia on IQ. The science is subtle and not at all as stable as the encyclopedia makes it sound. One of the reasons people in the field talk about this stuff so gingerly is the proclivity laypeople have for taking half-baked science and turning it into public policy.