4 ms·

please don't. I live in germany and our academic system is flawed to the extreme. Even the dual systeme. I mean common our universities and schools has a worse

by merb 9y ago

please don't. I live in germany and our academic system is flawed to the extreme. Even the dual systeme. I mean common our universities and schools has a worse system than america (and a lot of other countries). The dual system should've bridged school and labor skills, however it does not work that good. Especially not in IT. The problem a lot of kids come from different schools, some have higher educations some not. so the school tries to learn a lot of things which they should've teached in schools already, while they train you not a lot of practical things in school. Also a lot of practical things you learn in the school are mostly already learned since the school progresses way too slow. As already said I think the problem starts already in the kindergarten/early school. And then progresses in middle schools. in germany you basically get thrown to life either after your school years or after your university/higher schools. You always start with nearly no experience, even after you did apprenticeship in dual system you are not prepared for your life. worse is even if you did something in west germany it could be slightly different in other parts of germany, so switching schools can be really really hard. our system basically enforces "lax-iness" until a certain point in life and than you either get it or you get lost in the system. and it get's worse due to our polictics that loosens more and more rules

jfaucett 9y ago
> our academic system is flawed to the extreme. Even the dual systeme. Yes its flawed but not to the extreme like you suggest. One of the biggest problems we have, and this I think is common to almost all countries, is that there is very little emphasis on applied knowledge and much more on theoretical knowledge. The duale Studium is a better way to attack the problem than anything else currently out there IMHO. Another problem we have is that motivations are flawed for our Professors. Many Professors want to conduct research and don't care about teaching the material, on the other hand you have some Professors that don't want to research and would just enjoy teaching the material, yet everyone is incentivized to conduct research because its the only way to progress. I think this is fundamentally wrong. Its bad for the students and bad for the professors. If a professor just wants to teach he/she should be allowed to focus on that area and be judged by how well his students can actually apply the learning they acquired in the course. If a professor wants to research he should be judged by his research. There are so many other problem areas as well, for instance, I think we should allow much more mobility between disciplines than is currently the case. I've studied computer science and although I'm quite familiar with computational finance I would probably not be allowed to get a Phd in Finance since I've never taken business/economics courses. Although if you tested me on any number of financial subjects I wouldn't have a problem describing how to model/analyze/forecast the data. So there are a lot of arbitrary hoops that keep people down and force you to not to change you field of study. Its also very difficult for older people mid career to get a degree and increase their personal capital that way. These again are just some problems that we need to address but "flawed in the extreme" - I tend to disagree on that one.
- igk 9y ago
  >Yes its flawed but not to the extreme like you suggest. One of the biggest problems we have, and this I think is common to almost all countries, is that there is very little emphasis on applied knowledge and much more on theoretical knowledge. The duale Studium is a better way to attack the problem than anything else currently out there IMHO. As I've argued in a differnet post, the problem isn't too little theoretical knowledge, it's that uni is just seen as "the highest" and people who just want practical knowledge go to a place which is supposed to give you deep insight into the theories and research in your field because it gives the status qualification. >Another problem we have is that motivations are flawed for our Professors. Many Professors want to conduct research and don't care about teaching the material, on the other hand you have some Professors that don't want to research and would just enjoy teaching the material, yet everyone is incentivized to conduct research because its the only way to progress. I think this is fundamentally wrong. Its bad for the students and bad for the professors. If a professor just wants to teach he/she should be allowed to focus on that area and be judged by how well his students can actually apply the learning they acquired in the course. If a professor wants to research he should be judged by his research. This follows from my point above. We mix "I just want a job students" with "give me moar theory" students and the profs who (anecdotally) love dealing with the second type (explaining things to interested newbs is stimulating for insight) have to dumb down things enough so the job hunters can get their employer mandated checkmark >There are so many other problem areas as well, for instance, I think we should allow much more mobility between disciplines than is currently the case. I've studied computer science and although I'm quite familiar with computational finance I would probably not be allowed to get a Phd in Finance since I've never taken business/economics courses. Although if you tested me on any number of financial subjects I wouldn't have a problem describing how to model/analyze/forecast the data. So there are a lot of arbitrary hoops that keep people down and force you to not to change you field of study. That I actually have to disagree with...I know loads of CS and EE majors in economics, the reverse less but also. Especially at the PhD level, as long as you did something relevant, you can get in. > Its also very difficult for older people mid career to get a degree and increase their personal capital that way. These again are just some problems that we need to address but "flawed in the extreme" - I tend to disagree on that one. This is indeed a problem, but for example my alma mater has started offering part time degrees, with 25% of the workload required per semester and twice the allowed maxmimum study time. So there is change
phreeza 9y ago
As a German I have to say I have no idea what you are talking about. I would like to counter some specific points but I am having trouble even parsing what you are saying. One point is that you complain about the laxness of the system, and then say that people leave the system unprepared for real life. I would argue that forcing you to take responsibility for yourself is part of this laxness, and at the same time an essential preparation for participating in life after university?
igk 9y ago
Seconding the other guy, what are you talking about? The only part I'd agree with is the "laxness" that is seeping in, but that is more because we are following our US brethren in dumbing things down so "no child will be left behind", while still sticking to a 9-13 year schedule in education - even though knowledge and complexity has increased A LOT since those times were set. Heck, we even tried shortening it to 12 years for gymnasium because the industry chamber wanted "more workers" and then noticed the kids are completely overloaded
- merb 9y ago
  > and then noticed the kids are completely overloaded eh? of course they are overloaded. most schools have still nearly no school at the noon. school in germany is from ca. ~8-~13 on two days you also have 2 days at noon. sometimes even 3 days, but not that many hours, you NEVER actually have something like 8 hours. of course sticking more and more (the humanity learned more over the years and history is growing) into a max of 25 hours per week is challenging. also I know the "need more workers" problem. my company needs more people, but it's hard to find one. especially trained ones. yeah we can raise one, however even after the "ausbildung" our trainee will not be as productive as he could be. a lot of that comes from the schools you maybe get said that you need to do things, but kids these days don't care, their school life is so extremly peaceful (and a lot of them don't like it, anyway). I was a "rebel", in these years, too. but I learned my lessons that if I raise my ass that I can make more money and be happier at the end and that I don't want to be a work puppy. but a lot of people here don't realise that in school and they never will, cause our system is extremly flawed. even in sports, we don't get prepared for the real life. we get prepared for the tests in our school life.
  - watwut 9y ago
    They are simultaneously overloaded and their school life is also too peaceful? And somehow longer school day for 10 years old would make them less overloaded? I am also not sure why would you expect the sport to prepare kid for the workplace life.
lispm 9y ago
It's actually the opposite of what you describe. The company I currently work for participates in the Duales Studium. I've seen very good projects the students did for the company, while they interacted with the usual software development teams. After the study they exactly knew what they had to expect working full time and they moved into the teams without any effort. Additionally there is a lot of respect for the students, because they demonstrated cool stuff early on.

by merb 9y ago

jfaucett 9y ago

> our academic system is flawed to the extreme. Even the dual systeme. Yes its flawed but not to the extreme like you suggest. One of the biggest problems we have, and this I think is common to almost all countries, is that there is very little emphasis on applied knowledge and much more on theoretical knowledge. The duale Studium is a better way to attack the problem than anything else currently out there IMHO. Another problem we have is that motivations are flawed for our Professors. Many Professors want to conduct research and don't care about teaching the material, on the other hand you have some Professors that don't want to research and would just enjoy teaching the material, yet everyone is incentivized to conduct research because its the only way to progress. I think this is fundamentally wrong. Its bad for the students and bad for the professors. If a professor just wants to teach he/she should be allowed to focus on that area and be judged by how well his students can actually apply the learning they acquired in the course. If a professor wants to research he should be judged by his research. There are so many other problem areas as well, for instance, I think we should allow much more mobility between disciplines than is currently the case. I've studied computer science and although I'm quite familiar with computational finance I would probably not be allowed to get a Phd in Finance since I've never taken business/economics courses. Although if you tested me on any number of financial subjects I wouldn't have a problem describing how to model/analyze/forecast the data. So there are a lot of arbitrary hoops that keep people down and force you to not to change you field of study. Its also very difficult for older people mid career to get a degree and increase their personal capital that way. These again are just some problems that we need to address but "flawed in the extreme" - I tend to disagree on that one.

igk 9y ago
>Yes its flawed but not to the extreme like you suggest. One of the biggest problems we have, and this I think is common to almost all countries, is that there is very little emphasis on applied knowledge and much more on theoretical knowledge. The duale Studium is a better way to attack the problem than anything else currently out there IMHO. As I've argued in a differnet post, the problem isn't too little theoretical knowledge, it's that uni is just seen as "the highest" and people who just want practical knowledge go to a place which is supposed to give you deep insight into the theories and research in your field because it gives the status qualification. >Another problem we have is that motivations are flawed for our Professors. Many Professors want to conduct research and don't care about teaching the material, on the other hand you have some Professors that don't want to research and would just enjoy teaching the material, yet everyone is incentivized to conduct research because its the only way to progress. I think this is fundamentally wrong. Its bad for the students and bad for the professors. If a professor just wants to teach he/she should be allowed to focus on that area and be judged by how well his students can actually apply the learning they acquired in the course. If a professor wants to research he should be judged by his research. This follows from my point above. We mix "I just want a job students" with "give me moar theory" students and the profs who (anecdotally) love dealing with the second type (explaining things to interested newbs is stimulating for insight) have to dumb down things enough so the job hunters can get their employer mandated checkmark >There are so many other problem areas as well, for instance, I think we should allow much more mobility between disciplines than is currently the case. I've studied computer science and although I'm quite familiar with computational finance I would probably not be allowed to get a Phd in Finance since I've never taken business/economics courses. Although if you tested me on any number of financial subjects I wouldn't have a problem describing how to model/analyze/forecast the data. So there are a lot of arbitrary hoops that keep people down and force you to not to change you field of study. That I actually have to disagree with...I know loads of CS and EE majors in economics, the reverse less but also. Especially at the PhD level, as long as you did something relevant, you can get in. > Its also very difficult for older people mid career to get a degree and increase their personal capital that way. These again are just some problems that we need to address but "flawed in the extreme" - I tend to disagree on that one. This is indeed a problem, but for example my alma mater has started offering part time degrees, with 25% of the workload required per semester and twice the allowed maxmimum study time. So there is change

phreeza 9y ago

As a German I have to say I have no idea what you are talking about. I would like to counter some specific points but I am having trouble even parsing what you are saying. One point is that you complain about the laxness of the system, and then say that people leave the system unprepared for real life. I would argue that forcing you to take responsibility for yourself is part of this laxness, and at the same time an essential preparation for participating in life after university?

igk 9y ago

Seconding the other guy, what are you talking about? The only part I'd agree with is the "laxness" that is seeping in, but that is more because we are following our US brethren in dumbing things down so "no child will be left behind", while still sticking to a 9-13 year schedule in education - even though knowledge and complexity has increased A LOT since those times were set. Heck, we even tried shortening it to 12 years for gymnasium because the industry chamber wanted "more workers" and then noticed the kids are completely overloaded

merb 9y ago
> and then noticed the kids are completely overloaded eh? of course they are overloaded. most schools have still nearly no school at the noon. school in germany is from ca. ~8-~13 on two days you also have 2 days at noon. sometimes even 3 days, but not that many hours, you NEVER actually have something like 8 hours. of course sticking more and more (the humanity learned more over the years and history is growing) into a max of 25 hours per week is challenging. also I know the "need more workers" problem. my company needs more people, but it's hard to find one. especially trained ones. yeah we can raise one, however even after the "ausbildung" our trainee will not be as productive as he could be. a lot of that comes from the schools you maybe get said that you need to do things, but kids these days don't care, their school life is so extremly peaceful (and a lot of them don't like it, anyway). I was a "rebel", in these years, too. but I learned my lessons that if I raise my ass that I can make more money and be happier at the end and that I don't want to be a work puppy. but a lot of people here don't realise that in school and they never will, cause our system is extremly flawed. even in sports, we don't get prepared for the real life. we get prepared for the tests in our school life.
- watwut 9y ago
  They are simultaneously overloaded and their school life is also too peaceful? And somehow longer school day for 10 years old would make them less overloaded? I am also not sure why would you expect the sport to prepare kid for the workplace life.

lispm 9y ago

It's actually the opposite of what you describe. The company I currently work for participates in the Duales Studium. I've seen very good projects the students did for the company, while they interacted with the usual software development teams. After the study they exactly knew what they had to expect working full time and they moved into the teams without any effort. Additionally there is a lot of respect for the students, because they demonstrated cool stuff early on.