7 ms·

I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering. I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how

I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering. I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist. I think the bigger question is 'does dark money enable crime?'. If the answer is yes, then we as a tech community need to consider the impact of legitimizing cryptocurrent and enabling unfettered criminal enterprise.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 9y ago
> I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering. I've never heard of prepaid Visa cards being called a "tumbler of digital currency", which the bill specifically deals with. It seems clear whoever wrote this knows about Bitcoin etc. > I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist. It's well documented that they're poking around on social media for information on folks. You've posted that you have one on an account whose profile mentions your employer's name. I wouldn't be shocked if they could connect the dots pretty trivially.
- cabaalis 9y ago
  During the last election cycle I stripped all of my online social media of any real life references. Except for my name on Facebook and my LinkedIn account, which I never use for non-work stuff or private opinions. Definitely doesn't make their work impossible, but why make it easy?
  - petre 9y ago
    Having FB and Linkedin accounts with your real name is already making it easy.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Do you believe they really deleted it? Removing it from their website doesn't mean it was removed from their servers. I'd be skeptical, where I you.
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  The amendment also covers "prepaid access devices", which is apparently the technically-specific way to talk about things like prepaid Visa cards. Quote: >A prepaid access program is an arrangement through which one or more persons acting together provide access to funds or the value of funds that have been paid in advance and can be retrieved or transferred at some point in the future through an electronic device or vehicle, such as a card, code, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, or personal identification number. https://www.occ.treas.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2011/bulletin-2011-27.html https://www.occ.treas.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2011/bull... So basically, the grandparent is asserting that the main thrust of the bill is the amendments that make prepaid cards covered.
mrb 9y ago
Any technology enables crime. Have you considered the impact of legitimizing cars, weapons, phones, audio recorders, drones, etc? Edit: not sure how to interpret the replies to my post ("currency enables crime"). Yes the dollar/euro/pound/cryptocurrency enable crime. Should we ban them all? No. Both government-controlled currencies and cryptocurrencies enable economic activity, hence create wealth, and are a net benefit to society. Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency so that's even less of a reason to ban cryptocurrency.
- senectus1 9y ago
  Any Currency enables crime. in fact I'd go as far as to say that it's a driving force for Crime...
- cbanek 9y ago
  Currency definitely enables crime. There are a few reasons why institutions (government, banks) are crazy about digital currency: auditing (taxes, crime), fees, negative interest rates.
- Kinnard 9y ago
  "If it can't be used for evil, it isn't a super power"
- closeparen 9y ago
  We are in the process of delegitimizing cars, weapons are already taboo and illegal in liberal cities, Congress keeps trying to open phones to law enforcement, HN is enamored of European-style privacy laws that make it an onerous legal liability to have the capability for audio recording (or any other data collection), and drones were heavily curtailed by the FAA with widespread public support. We already have currency, and it works much better than any cryptocurrency. The specific problem cryptocurrency solves is vulnerability to law enforcement (i.e. central control). I would also be concerned if someone started selling weapons whose defining feature was their resistance to homicide investigators.
- xg15 9y ago
  > Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency. (emphasis mine) I'm honestly surprised by that. (Especially after it's seems to be the go-to method of payment for ransomware which should lead to huge amounts of illegal activity.) Could you link some sources?
lisper 9y ago
> does dark money enable crime? How can there be any doubt in your mind that the answer is yes? The whole ransomware industry is only viable because bitcoin has succeeded.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Well, the Silk Road and its replacements have been orders of magnitude larger than the "ransomware industry". And there's arguably no moral requirement to obey immoral laws. So overall, cryptocurrencies have been a huge win for freedom.
  - lisper 9y ago
    I don't deny that. But being a win for freedom and being a win for crime are not mutually exclusive.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      I can't quite parse that :( But I believe that "being a win for freedom and being a win for crime" necessarily overlap. Maybe entirely. Because anything that allows some authorities to curtail crime necessarily allows other authorities to curtail freedom.
      - lisper 9y ago
        > I can't quite parse that :( Sorry. It means we agree.
  - slg 9y ago
    Are you arguing laws against money laundering are immoral? Because they are a practical requirement in order to levy any type of income tax. Or are you claiming that Silk Road style sites are only illegal because of immoral laws? I get that the HN crowd generally has a libertarian and anti-prohibition bent, but outside of illicit drugs there are some inarguably horrible things being sold on those sites like child porn and murders for hire. Doesn't the government and law enforcement have a moral requirement to combat that?
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
They don't have to know about them. They just have to ask you about them. I don't know the exact legality around border agents, but I can't imagine lying to them working out well for you.
- petre 9y ago
  Nice try. Lying to the feds is already a crime punishable by up to 5 years in jail if I'm not mistaken.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions. There are, as near as I recall, certain other specific lies that are in the State's jurisdiction, such as giving the police a fake name. Something like 15 years ago, SCOTUS also ruled against a guy who refused to give the police his name when he was questioned. For the most part, you can tell a regular cop all sorts of lies, with some exceptions like your name. Lying to the FBI is against the law, if you're being questioned in regards to a criminal matter - I am unsure about civil matters. You sure as hell can't lie on the forms you sign when you cross the border. No, they will be right pissed if you do that. I am not a lawyer, but I have spent some time in court, dated a lawyer, and taken a few electives on the subject. So, this isn't legal advice but I'm pretty sure this is reasonably accurate. Sort of off topic, they pick students to hold mock trials, hearings, etc., and do this in a mock courtroom at many universities. If you audit the right course, you can volunteer and you can learn all sorts of neat things. You can also just go sit in the courtroom at your local court. It's open to the public, most of the time. It's a great way to learn more about procedure. Anyhow, like always, consult a qualified legal professional in your jurisdiction, should you need legal advice.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      > I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions. If digital currencies really take off (i.e. beyond just a niche group of speculators and early adopters), expect customs forms to include a question on it, then. You already have to promise not to be a member of Al Qaeda on some immigration forms.
sbuttgereit 9y ago
Along the way, we also need to consider what is considered crime and what is not. Not all 'crime' as defined by law, is immoral. And sometimes, enabling certain activities can be very illegal, yet profoundly moral. Of course, we all likely won't agree on what counts as illegal/moral. Your point is not invalid, just more nuanced or complex perhaps that your direct point suggests.
- blazespin 9y ago
  It's a crime if you live there and it's considered the law of the land that you have broken. Don't like it and can't effect change lawfully? Move. This is the best explanation I have seen. Morality is a completely artificial construct. There is no such thing as something being provably evil or good. It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers. I love crypocurrency as much as the next guy, but I also enjoy the happiness I get from living in a law abiding community.
  - gameshot911 9y ago
    Sure. Tomorrow morning you wake up and your country has mandated DNA testing for all citizens. Anyone who does not have approved genomes will be summarily sterilized 'for the good of the future of the citizenry'. Oh, and they also made it illegal to avoid the DNA testing, and to move out of your current location. What then?
  - derefr 9y ago
    > It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers. Those two ideas aren't inherently contradictory. It's pretty easy to ground metaethics by asserting something like "human genetics encodes an instinctual preference function for social mores into human brains." Then, "morality" is an objective fact: an objective fact about what actions are acceptable to (neurotypical) humans.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Yeah and a century ago social mores said interracial marriage was immoral and neurotypical humans of the time believed it because society. Ain't nothing objective there.
hilyen 9y ago
>'does dark money enable crime?' all currency does this.
- wfunction 9y ago
  Some more than others, e.g. see Bitcoin and ransomware proliferation
  - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
    As we saw with WannaCry: the type of people who fall victim to ransomware attacks are also the type of people who aren't really able to use Bitcoin.
    - wfunction 9y ago
      That is completely irrelevant. The point is this is a reason to better regulate or ban digital currency, because it's massively helping the proliferation of ransomware. That people who get attacked by ransomware don't know how to use such currency is such a bizarrely irrelevant statement.
- DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
  Has any crime happened with IMG Special Drawing Rights?
arx1422 9y ago
This is one of the most responsible comments I've ever seen on Hacker News.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
we as a tech community There is no we that comprises a coherent tech community. People with malicious intent are also able to write code and assemble hardware.
petre 9y ago
> I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist. When you exchange over $10k in cryptocurrency to actual cash, the exchange will have the obligation if reporting it. Also don't even think of breaking the exchange into 10 transactions of $1k because that too is covered by the law.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
prawn 9y ago
"I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist." "Do you have a private cloud? Do you own cryptocurrency?" Watch your reaction while you realise that you've likely committed an offence if you deny it, etc. One day in the near future, they likely have algorithms giving them a likelihood that you fit the type, and that will suggest their line of questioning - whether it's about data storage or propensity to work while on a tourist visa, or whatever else. In the short term I imagine it will work, but I don't think it will work forever.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 9y ago

> I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering. I've never heard of prepaid Visa cards being called a "tumbler of digital currency", which the bill specifically deals with. It seems clear whoever wrote this knows about Bitcoin etc. > I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist. It's well documented that they're poking around on social media for information on folks. You've posted that you have one on an account whose profile mentions your employer's name. I wouldn't be shocked if they could connect the dots pretty trivially.

cabaalis 9y ago
During the last election cycle I stripped all of my online social media of any real life references. Except for my name on Facebook and my LinkedIn account, which I never use for non-work stuff or private opinions. Definitely doesn't make their work impossible, but why make it easy?
- petre 9y ago
  Having FB and Linkedin accounts with your real name is already making it easy.
- KGIII 9y ago
  Do you believe they really deleted it? Removing it from their website doesn't mean it was removed from their servers. I'd be skeptical, where I you.
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
The amendment also covers "prepaid access devices", which is apparently the technically-specific way to talk about things like prepaid Visa cards. Quote: >A prepaid access program is an arrangement through which one or more persons acting together provide access to funds or the value of funds that have been paid in advance and can be retrieved or transferred at some point in the future through an electronic device or vehicle, such as a card, code, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, or personal identification number. https://www.occ.treas.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2011/bulletin-2011-27.html https://www.occ.treas.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2011/bull... So basically, the grandparent is asserting that the main thrust of the bill is the amendments that make prepaid cards covered.

mrb 9y ago

Any technology enables crime. Have you considered the impact of legitimizing cars, weapons, phones, audio recorders, drones, etc? Edit: not sure how to interpret the replies to my post ("currency enables crime"). Yes the dollar/euro/pound/cryptocurrency enable crime. Should we ban them all? No. Both government-controlled currencies and cryptocurrencies enable economic activity, hence create wealth, and are a net benefit to society. Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency so that's even less of a reason to ban cryptocurrency.

senectus1 9y ago
Any Currency enables crime. in fact I'd go as far as to say that it's a driving force for Crime...
cbanek 9y ago
Currency definitely enables crime. There are a few reasons why institutions (government, banks) are crazy about digital currency: auditing (taxes, crime), fees, negative interest rates.
Kinnard 9y ago
"If it can't be used for evil, it isn't a super power"
closeparen 9y ago
We are in the process of delegitimizing cars, weapons are already taboo and illegal in liberal cities, Congress keeps trying to open phones to law enforcement, HN is enamored of European-style privacy laws that make it an onerous legal liability to have the capability for audio recording (or any other data collection), and drones were heavily curtailed by the FAA with widespread public support. We already have currency, and it works much better than any cryptocurrency. The specific problem cryptocurrency solves is vulnerability to law enforcement (i.e. central control). I would also be concerned if someone started selling weapons whose defining feature was their resistance to homicide investigators.
xg15 9y ago
> Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency. (emphasis mine) I'm honestly surprised by that. (Especially after it's seems to be the go-to method of payment for ransomware which should lead to huge amounts of illegal activity.) Could you link some sources?

lisper 9y ago

> does dark money enable crime? How can there be any doubt in your mind that the answer is yes? The whole ransomware industry is only viable because bitcoin has succeeded.

mirimir 9y ago
Well, the Silk Road and its replacements have been orders of magnitude larger than the "ransomware industry". And there's arguably no moral requirement to obey immoral laws. So overall, cryptocurrencies have been a huge win for freedom.
- lisper 9y ago
  I don't deny that. But being a win for freedom and being a win for crime are not mutually exclusive.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    I can't quite parse that :( But I believe that "being a win for freedom and being a win for crime" necessarily overlap. Maybe entirely. Because anything that allows some authorities to curtail crime necessarily allows other authorities to curtail freedom.
    - lisper 9y ago
      > I can't quite parse that :( Sorry. It means we agree.
- slg 9y ago
  Are you arguing laws against money laundering are immoral? Because they are a practical requirement in order to levy any type of income tax. Or are you claiming that Silk Road style sites are only illegal because of immoral laws? I get that the HN crowd generally has a libertarian and anti-prohibition bent, but outside of illicit drugs there are some inarguably horrible things being sold on those sites like child porn and murders for hire. Doesn't the government and law enforcement have a moral requirement to combat that?

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

They don't have to know about them. They just have to ask you about them. I don't know the exact legality around border agents, but I can't imagine lying to them working out well for you.

petre 9y ago
Nice try. Lying to the feds is already a crime punishable by up to 5 years in jail if I'm not mistaken.
- KGIII 9y ago
  I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions. There are, as near as I recall, certain other specific lies that are in the State's jurisdiction, such as giving the police a fake name. Something like 15 years ago, SCOTUS also ruled against a guy who refused to give the police his name when he was questioned. For the most part, you can tell a regular cop all sorts of lies, with some exceptions like your name. Lying to the FBI is against the law, if you're being questioned in regards to a criminal matter - I am unsure about civil matters. You sure as hell can't lie on the forms you sign when you cross the border. No, they will be right pissed if you do that. I am not a lawyer, but I have spent some time in court, dated a lawyer, and taken a few electives on the subject. So, this isn't legal advice but I'm pretty sure this is reasonably accurate. Sort of off topic, they pick students to hold mock trials, hearings, etc., and do this in a mock courtroom at many universities. If you audit the right course, you can volunteer and you can learn all sorts of neat things. You can also just go sit in the courtroom at your local court. It's open to the public, most of the time. It's a great way to learn more about procedure. Anyhow, like always, consult a qualified legal professional in your jurisdiction, should you need legal advice.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions. If digital currencies really take off (i.e. beyond just a niche group of speculators and early adopters), expect customs forms to include a question on it, then. You already have to promise not to be a member of Al Qaeda on some immigration forms.

sbuttgereit 9y ago

Along the way, we also need to consider what is considered crime and what is not. Not all 'crime' as defined by law, is immoral. And sometimes, enabling certain activities can be very illegal, yet profoundly moral. Of course, we all likely won't agree on what counts as illegal/moral. Your point is not invalid, just more nuanced or complex perhaps that your direct point suggests.

blazespin 9y ago
It's a crime if you live there and it's considered the law of the land that you have broken. Don't like it and can't effect change lawfully? Move. This is the best explanation I have seen. Morality is a completely artificial construct. There is no such thing as something being provably evil or good. It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers. I love crypocurrency as much as the next guy, but I also enjoy the happiness I get from living in a law abiding community.
- gameshot911 9y ago
  Sure. Tomorrow morning you wake up and your country has mandated DNA testing for all citizens. Anyone who does not have approved genomes will be summarily sterilized 'for the good of the future of the citizenry'. Oh, and they also made it illegal to avoid the DNA testing, and to move out of your current location. What then?
- derefr 9y ago
  > It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers. Those two ideas aren't inherently contradictory. It's pretty easy to ground metaethics by asserting something like "human genetics encodes an instinctual preference function for social mores into human brains." Then, "morality" is an objective fact: an objective fact about what actions are acceptable to (neurotypical) humans.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Yeah and a century ago social mores said interracial marriage was immoral and neurotypical humans of the time believed it because society. Ain't nothing objective there.

hilyen 9y ago

>'does dark money enable crime?' all currency does this.

wfunction 9y ago
Some more than others, e.g. see Bitcoin and ransomware proliferation
- DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
  As we saw with WannaCry: the type of people who fall victim to ransomware attacks are also the type of people who aren't really able to use Bitcoin.
  - wfunction 9y ago
    That is completely irrelevant. The point is this is a reason to better regulate or ban digital currency, because it's massively helping the proliferation of ransomware. That people who get attacked by ransomware don't know how to use such currency is such a bizarrely irrelevant statement.
DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
Has any crime happened with IMG Special Drawing Rights?

arx1422 9y ago

This is one of the most responsible comments I've ever seen on Hacker News.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

we as a tech community There is no we that comprises a coherent tech community. People with malicious intent are also able to write code and assemble hardware.

petre 9y ago

> I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist. When you exchange over $10k in cryptocurrency to actual cash, the exchange will have the obligation if reporting it. Also don't even think of breaking the exchange into 10 transactions of $1k because that too is covered by the law.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

prawn 9y ago

"I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist." "Do you have a private cloud? Do you own cryptocurrency?" Watch your reaction while you realise that you've likely committed an offence if you deny it, etc. One day in the near future, they likely have algorithms giving them a likelihood that you fit the type, and that will suggest their line of questioning - whether it's about data storage or propensity to work while on a tourist visa, or whatever else. In the short term I imagine it will work, but I don't think it will work forever.