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While the raw compute performance numbers of Zen may be better than Intel, don't underestimate other economic and business factors. AMD has always played 2nd fi

While the raw compute performance numbers of Zen may be better than Intel, don't underestimate other economic and business factors. AMD has always played 2nd fiddle to Intel and it is hard to shake that perception. I'd love to see a major cloud provider (AWS, Google, Azure) actively buying AMD chips and making them available for compute. However, I am still a bit skeptical this is ever going to happen. There is just too much risk for a cloud provider. Intel holds market and nearly all mindshare in mainstream cloud computing. Disclosure: $AMD shareholder

chao- 9y ago
I wouldn't be so sure. As Intel's customers, the cloud providers are very interested in not seeing Intel maintain the near-monopoly they have inched toward over the last 5 years. They don't want to pay $7K each for the highest performance Xeon if it could be $6K in a slightly more competitive market. So much so that Google and others joined the OpenPOWER Foundation. Whether that was just for signaling alone, or if they legitimately thought a POWER8 chip would come available that met their needs, I of course do not know.
- nodesocket 9y ago
  I agree, but there is inherent risk to switching for a cloud provider, even though AMD might offer a cheaper and faster CPU.
  - arcanus 9y ago
    Certainly a risk, but this is Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook we are talking about here. The largest public companies in the world. Some of the most technologically advanced as well. If they cannot bring pressure to Intel, no one can.
  - wmf 9y ago
    Cloud providers aren't going to switch fully to AMD, but I wouldn't be surprised if they buy a mix like 70% Intel / 30% AMD. There may be a situation, however, where the servers that are rented to customers are 100% Intel which would perpetuate the appearance of a monopoly even if it no longer exists.
throwaway-1209 9y ago
I disagree. It is _vital_ for cloud providers to keep Intel's feet to the fire. Things got so bad a few years back, Google started porting its entire software stack to ppc64le, which is far less convenient as a platform than amd64. I think we will totally see EPYC deployment in data centers if AMDs benchmarks hold up. You may not even know they're there, but I can guarantee they'll see a significant traction.
geezerjay 9y ago
> AMD has always played 2nd fiddle to Intel and it is hard to shake that perception. I don't know where you got that perception. Perhaps you're a kid fresh out of highschool and are oblivious to AMD's history, but AMD's Athlon line outperformed Intel's offering of the time by a wide margin, namely their Pentium II, Pentium III, Pentium IV and Pentium D lines. IIRC, Intel only started to become competitive with AMD with the introduction of their Core 2 line.
- dom0 9y ago
  While that's true, Intel had better sales even in those times due to their aggressive marketing and business practices. IIRC AMD peaked back then at shipping 40 % of all units.
- nodesocket 9y ago
  In fact I am not an oblivious "kid fresh out of highschool"... Also, I think you are confusing performance with business success and sales. AMD may have had better performing CPUs in the past, but that has not mattered thus far. $INTC market cap 165 billion. $AMD market cap 10 billion.
  - redtuesday 9y ago
    Then you are probably aware that it has not mattered because of Intels shady tactics. [0][1][2][3] etc. [0] https://www.wired.com/2009/12/ftc-sues-intel-for-anti-competitive-practices/ https://www.wired.com/2009/12/ftc-sues-intel-for-anti-compet... [1] http://www.silicon.co.uk/workspace/dell-pays-65million-to-settle-intel-bribe-probe-8577 http://www.silicon.co.uk/workspace/dell-pays-65million-to-se... [2] http://techreport.com/news/8547/does-intel-compiler-cripple-amd-performance http://techreport.com/news/8547/does-intel-compiler-cripple-... [3] http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49#49 http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49#49
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > Also, I think you are confusing performance with business success and sales. I see your point. I've misinterpreted your comment assuming it was focused on performance instead of market share.
rsynnott 9y ago
> I'd love to see a major cloud provider (AWS, Google, Azure) actively buying AMD chips and making them available for compute. AWS used to use AMD chips in some instance types; I believe the whole m1 line used to be dual-sourced. If you got an Opteron when you launched it, you killed it and tried again, as the Xeon type was a little faster :)

chao- 9y ago

I wouldn't be so sure. As Intel's customers, the cloud providers are very interested in not seeing Intel maintain the near-monopoly they have inched toward over the last 5 years. They don't want to pay $7K each for the highest performance Xeon if it could be $6K in a slightly more competitive market. So much so that Google and others joined the OpenPOWER Foundation. Whether that was just for signaling alone, or if they legitimately thought a POWER8 chip would come available that met their needs, I of course do not know.

nodesocket 9y ago
I agree, but there is inherent risk to switching for a cloud provider, even though AMD might offer a cheaper and faster CPU.
- arcanus 9y ago
  Certainly a risk, but this is Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook we are talking about here. The largest public companies in the world. Some of the most technologically advanced as well. If they cannot bring pressure to Intel, no one can.
- wmf 9y ago
  Cloud providers aren't going to switch fully to AMD, but I wouldn't be surprised if they buy a mix like 70% Intel / 30% AMD. There may be a situation, however, where the servers that are rented to customers are 100% Intel which would perpetuate the appearance of a monopoly even if it no longer exists.

throwaway-1209 9y ago

I disagree. It is _vital_ for cloud providers to keep Intel's feet to the fire. Things got so bad a few years back, Google started porting its entire software stack to ppc64le, which is far less convenient as a platform than amd64. I think we will totally see EPYC deployment in data centers if AMDs benchmarks hold up. You may not even know they're there, but I can guarantee they'll see a significant traction.

geezerjay 9y ago

> AMD has always played 2nd fiddle to Intel and it is hard to shake that perception. I don't know where you got that perception. Perhaps you're a kid fresh out of highschool and are oblivious to AMD's history, but AMD's Athlon line outperformed Intel's offering of the time by a wide margin, namely their Pentium II, Pentium III, Pentium IV and Pentium D lines. IIRC, Intel only started to become competitive with AMD with the introduction of their Core 2 line.

dom0 9y ago
While that's true, Intel had better sales even in those times due to their aggressive marketing and business practices. IIRC AMD peaked back then at shipping 40 % of all units.
nodesocket 9y ago
In fact I am not an oblivious "kid fresh out of highschool"... Also, I think you are confusing performance with business success and sales. AMD may have had better performing CPUs in the past, but that has not mattered thus far. $INTC market cap 165 billion. $AMD market cap 10 billion.
- redtuesday 9y ago
  Then you are probably aware that it has not mattered because of Intels shady tactics. [0][1][2][3] etc. [0] https://www.wired.com/2009/12/ftc-sues-intel-for-anti-competitive-practices/ https://www.wired.com/2009/12/ftc-sues-intel-for-anti-compet... [1] http://www.silicon.co.uk/workspace/dell-pays-65million-to-settle-intel-bribe-probe-8577 http://www.silicon.co.uk/workspace/dell-pays-65million-to-se... [2] http://techreport.com/news/8547/does-intel-compiler-cripple-amd-performance http://techreport.com/news/8547/does-intel-compiler-cripple-... [3] http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49#49 http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49#49
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > Also, I think you are confusing performance with business success and sales. I see your point. I've misinterpreted your comment assuming it was focused on performance instead of market share.

rsynnott 9y ago

> I'd love to see a major cloud provider (AWS, Google, Azure) actively buying AMD chips and making them available for compute. AWS used to use AMD chips in some instance types; I believe the whole m1 line used to be dual-sourced. If you got an Opteron when you launched it, you killed it and tried again, as the Xeon type was a little faster :)