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I'm totally perplexed at how you can appreciate something and still want to kill it.
by zukzuk 9y ago
I'm totally perplexed at how you can appreciate something and still want to kill it.
- jdavis703 9y agoI write this as a vegetarian (and former vegan). Do you appreciate plants? I know I sure do. Do I still kill them? Of course.
- __s 9y agoLet's apply that argument to killing humans now. Original post is getting at appreciation of this learning behavior. One may say the elk isn't doing this intelligently, drawing on examples such as dandelions which learn to not grow so tall after being mowed
- c22 9y agoI don't understand the application. Is it your stance that murderers are incapable of any appreciation for other humans? What about those who have killed others "justly", e.g. soldiers or executioners?
- niksakl 9y agoAre you suggesting that if he had claimed that he generally appreciates elks but not the ones he kills, would make more sense?
- c22 9y agoNah, I'm suggesting that a decision to kill something is not necessarily the same as a decision to destroy something and may be motivated by more factors than simply how much one appreciates that thing. I appreciate the intricate webs that spiders weave and their impact on the other insect population around me but I will totally squish one if she happens upon me in the wrong situation. I imagine for hunters the appreciation of their prey's complex behaviours may even be part of the appeal.
- niksakl 9y agoObviously then, you appreciate "having a clean, web-free house" more compared to the contribution of the webs in your home to the environment. Same same way, the hunter appreciates his hunting activity more compared to how much he appreciates his pray. Which makes the statement "I appreciate my pray" meaningless in the context of hunting. If you only hunt in a life threatening hunger situation, then obviously appreciate your own life more than the pray's. If you hunt for sports, then you appreciate your hobby more than your pray's life, and so on... (I am a meat-eater, just pointing out something I find funny in such statements)
- c22 9y agoI'm afraid you've misunderstood me again--I usually leave the webs in and around my house, I appreciate their beauty and their utility. I am not a hunter of spiders, for sport or otherwise. I offered the example only to show how in some contexts I might destroy something even though I appreciate it. I believe we may each be using the word "appreciate" with subtly different definitions. I believe it's possible to appreciate aspects of a thing without necessarily collapsing them all into some sort of comparison of perceived total value. I think it's possible that someone who hunts for sustenance might also come to treat the activity as somewhat of a sport, or an art, and so come to appreciate aspects of the activity including the intelligent behaviours of the prey.
- niksakl 9y agoNo I have not misunderstood you, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough(not a native English speaker here...). As you also say, the context itself is what matters. For example, today I would guess most e.g. Canadians do not hunt for survival. Having a Canadian hunter saying "I hunt elks for sports, but I appreciate them", is kind of funny and meaningless. In the context of hunting for sports, it is pointless to say "but I appreciate them". If you beat up your neighbor cause he attacked you with an axe, and you needed to save your life, it is pointless to say that you appreciate him. It is clear you did what you did, cause you appreciate your own existence more than him. It is equally pointless to say "but I appreciate him" after making clear that you beat him up, cause you din't like his face. In both cases, the context is clear and thus the level of appreciation to the other party. Stating "but..." is meaningless. That for, my understanding of what the level of appreciation of someone hunting for sports towards his pray, is that it is very low by my standards.
- oh_sigh 9y agoOP was arguing that you can easily appreciate something and still kill it. The nature of the appreciation is secondary to the original argument.
- linkregister 9y agoI wish I had those dandelions in my yard when I was growing up.
- douche 9y agoIt's pretty common, reading memoirs of very proficient soldiers, who have killed dozens or hundreds in battle, that they are respectful and even admiring of their foes.
- TallGuyShort 9y agoOne example: Andy McNab. I actually really admire that about his writing. I've read some war stories where there's a lot of negative attitudes - he always calls out what his enemies did well and how it was nothing personal that he held against them.
- zukzuk 9y agoThe difference being that with plants, you really don't have much of a choice. You have to eat something. Stalking deer, on the other hand, is definitely optional.
- resolaibohp 9y agoYeah I am with you here. Except that I cannot stand the thought of killing plants. Unfortunately I have to eat something so I do not have much of a choice but to kill an animal to do so.
- jdavis703 9y agoI try to not waste plant life. It's why I won't buy a live Christmas tree. Someone was just telling me how they kill their succulents and just buy new ones. That was about as offensive to me as if someone joked about how they kill their pet dogs all the time but buy new ones.
- Mz 9y agoThat runs both ways. Some people live on a meat-centered diet and hardly eat plants. Plants give off a pulse when harmed and communicate with each other chemically to inform other plants in the area of insect infestations so they can try to chemically protect themselves. Just because your senses fail to detect the ways in which they express their suffering doesn't mean they are any less able to feel and express themselves than the creatures whose self expression is more readily understood by humans.
- xenadu02 9y agoI don't personally hunt but have family and friends that do. They all understand licenses, seasons, and that the rules exist to ensure sustainable populations. None are trophy hunters - they have a butcher prepare the meat and a tanner make objects from the skins. It is possible to respect an animal and engage in conservation efforts while being a hunter. Many human societies have had forms of this, even having thankfulness rituals where they praise the spirit of the animal.
- dogruck 9y agoLook into what would happen to the populations if they were not hunted with permits.
- 13of40 9y agoI'm not sure about elk, but deer tend to have an alpha male that mates with multiple females, so shooting a buck doesn't damage the population as much. I think that's why antelope hunting is gender-agnostic and you need to win a lottery to do it: They're monogamous, so killing a male has the same impact on the population as killing a female.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoIt seems a lot more likely that killing males would discourage them from being monogamous than that killing males would have the same population impact as killing females.
- Mz 9y agoIf you assume that they adapt the way human cultures do to such influences, which isn't necessarily true of animal populations.
- wbl 9y agoEvolutionary pressure is a harsh mistress.
- IndrekR 9y agoI am not sure how well Heinlein's polyandrous Loonies[1] would match real-life scenarios. This did not happen in New South Wales where male convicts outnumbered the female convicts six to one[2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_women_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_women_in_Australia
- stcredzero 9y agoThere's a quote from James Audubon that was basically how he wished he could kill more birds. Humans are weird.
- simonsarris 9y agoThe lion ought to admire the gazelle.
- honestoHeminway 9y agoThe lion is not hunting the gazelle, he is stealing it from cheetahs. Cheetahs are not admiring gazelles- they are busy not overheating, and not getting speared with sabrelike horns on the head of the gazelle. Nobody is admiring the gazelle, except the gazelle.
- rlanday 9y agoI know, right? Personally I prefer to get all my meat from my employer's cafeteria where no animals had to be harmed.
- niksakl 9y agoBut still, nobody really claims to appreciate the pork the schnitzel he enjoys in the cafeteria used to be. It is much easier to get emotionally engaged with a living being when you see it and interact with it in its natural environment and you are the one who kills it and watches it die, than getting emotionally engaged with the beef where the frozen meatloaf you bought from the supermarket comes from.
- rlanday 9y ago"Pork" and "beef" are only used to describe the food items. I don't think being unwilling to acknowledge that the food you eat once came from living pigs and cows makes you morally superior to someone actually involved with the process.
- johansch 9y agoAny average day 16 elks collide with cars carrying humans in Sweden. These animals have no natural predators any longer - without these annual culls (100k out of a population of about 350k - these numbers are relatively stable from year to year) they would reach very large numbers very quickly. (There are not that many human deaths from this any longer; about five annually. It used to be a lot worse before e.g. Volvo focused on fixing this safety problem. Someone I knew died from an elk collision about 25 years ago.)
- douche 9y agoBTW, the original paper is about Cervus Elpaphus, which in the US we call Red Deer. This is different from American Elk, and also from Scandanavian Elk (which we Americans call Moose). Moose are terrifying, since they are often upwards of 1000 pounds, and are tall enough that when you hit them with anything smaller than a full-size pickup or tractor trailer, they tend to fall on the roof and windscreen of the vehicle, crushing them and killing the passengers.
- johansch 9y agoAh.. Anyway, I think Volvo addressed this problem by a) reinforcing particularly the A pillars using some very strong Boron steel alloy: http://135jik1bbhst1159ri1ax2pj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2013/08/2010_Volvo_V60_Body_Structure_Safety_Cage_Extrication_UHSS_Boron-1024x724.jpg http://135jik1bbhst1159ri1ax2pj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-c... b) angling the A pillars/front screen more in order to deflect some of the forces caused by a direct collision with a Moose.
- nkurz 9y agoI agree that confusion exists, but I don't think you have the details quite correct. In North America, I think the term "Red Deer" is only used to describe non-native animals. The paper says its about Cervus elaphus, but the study was done in Alberta, Canada. The native animals that are hunted in Alberta are locally called Elk and the provincial government says they are synonymous with Wapiti: http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/wild-species/mammals/deer/elk.aspx http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/wild-species/mammals/dee.... I think the missing pieces of information is that Wapiti (Cervus canadensis) was until recently classified as a subspecies of Cervus elaphus. I'm guessing that the authors of the paper (and the provincial government) either don't agree with this reclassification, or have some legal reason for continuing to refer to the native North American animals by the older Latin name.
- jessaustin 9y agoThe proper way to overcome your lack of understanding would be to try hunting...
- zukzuk 9y agoI hunted a mosquito in my bathroom last night. It's dead now — a successful hunt — but I did not enjoy it one bit.
- Recurecur 9y agoIt's easy. It's called "appreciating the natural order of things". Humans and their ancestors have hunted animals for millions of years. Beyond that, which animal do you think has a higher quality of life: an elk, roaming free in the woods, or a cow, living life as a rancher sees fit and then slaughtered when the meat is considered optimum? You should also reflect that the death of a wild animal is rarely serene or enjoyable. Death from old age is usually death from starvation. Death before old age might either be an agonizing one after an injury, or being eaten alive by predators. You should watch a video of wolves eating an elk sometime... The death a hunter offers is generally one of the more painless ways an animal can go. Even "trophy hunters", who take a lot of grief, are very often harvesting animals who aren't far from dying of old age as described above. Personally, though, I prefer hunting animals that provide lots of delicious, healthy meat. :-)
- LordKano 9y agoI'd suspect it's because he wants to eat it and that's a lot harder to do while it's still alive.