5 ms·

Brain drain will continue until compensation in Canada rises to match compensation in the US.

by uiri 9y ago

astrodust 9y ago
Let it drain if it has to. We don't need a hyper-saturated VC market.
- rlucas 9y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. "Brain drain" is when your technologists leave (often going toward a more "hyper saturated VC" geography). What is left behind is the same amount of VC dollars but fewer technologists to build things. Which leads to more "saturation" all else equal. If you don't want the same SF Bay Area level of VC-funded craziness, the answer isn't to "let it drain" all the technologists out of Canada. The answer is to keep them home and have them build awesome stuff and profitable companies in Canada. (With a more sustainable / reasonable amount of VC funding.) A good way to sell that is to focus on all the things BESIDES Bay Area VC $ that Canada offers: lifestyle and values, visa / immigration ease, outdoor opportunities, land/house purchase prices (well, outside of a few spots), political stability, and strong support for local champion tech companies. But just saying "let it drain," ugh. That's terrible. Brain drains really are one of the nastiest things that can happen with semi-porous borders. Very harmful to a region when its technologists (or whatever other highly educated bunch) leave en masse.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    What I'm saying is if the only way to retain the top-top talent is to pay outrageous, unsustainable wages, then it's better to let someone else take that hit and instead focus on making the best with what's left. Talent is a renewable resource as well. It's a fact that every year students graduate from university. If the market changes and Canadian firms can pay more competitive wages, either by getting more money or because Silicon Valley implodes, everything will sort itself out. Canada is just one country in a world of much bigger countries. To think we could retain 100% of our top talent is to over-state our importance. We should let some of our best and brightest go work abroad. We're not sending literally everyone, after all.
oneplusone 9y ago
If you factor in health care costs, housing costs, maternity leave, etc. Canada is a better deal. Our political climate isn't as toxic either.
- tj-teej 9y ago
  Sources?
- jtmcmc 9y ago
  when you consider that healthcare and decent maternity leave are generally included in any reasonable tech salary and that housing in toronto and vancouver is quite pricey the salary differential of 1/2 does not make up for it. I wish it did...
- vmarsy 9y ago
  A quick estimation [1] shows that a $130000 salary in the US is equivalent to around $105k / 139k CAD. There are some of the top companies in the SV who pays this as base salary, is is there 139k CAD companies in Montreal? What's the highest base salary for the local Netflix/Google/... of Canada? [1] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$130000+in+San+Francisco+in+Montreal+Canada https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$130000+in+San+Francis...
  - alexc05 9y ago
    I've done those sorts of calculations before and that aligns with roughly what I figured out at the time.
- nasalgoat 9y ago
  Canada is an amazing deal for US companies to open remote offices and save 50% of their employment costs. Forget the numerically lower salaries - factor in the dollar difference (20-30%) then factor in healthcare savings. Plus we speak English and share a lot of cultural similarities, and the time zone difference in Toronto is only 3 hours. Why more companies aren't doing it I just don't understand.
  - 9y ago
alexc05 9y ago
As the others are saying, there are a lot of features to life in Canada which aren't made up for by a $20,000 difference in salary. It isn't perfect but consider for example the 2017 world happiness report: http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/HR17-Ch2.pdf http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017... Page 13 shows the world happiness ranking of Canada at #7 and USA at #14. After a certain point a bit of extra money isn't going to buy significantly more life-happiness. Of course - I hate to argue against higher pay in Canada - but it is far from the only factor.
- poikniok 9y ago
  What about a $200,000 difference in salary?
  - alexc05 9y ago
    It depends where you start. Now, I typically don't see $200k salary differences but there might be some. If you browse Amazon, Google or Facebook in h1b databases for San Francisco or Seattle you see a range of roughly $130k to $160k. With outliers of course. If you peg that against $100k - $130 in Toronto you're going to ask yourself what portion of that increase is eaten by rent? Car? Commute time? Overtime"work culture"? Health Care? How far do I want to be from my parents? Do I want my children to grow up American? Am I a visible minority? Is the job in a region which is accepting of visible minorities ... or is it like Kansas where an Indian engineer was shot while being told to "go home"? http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting-indian-court/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting-... I'm not sure how many tech workers are really worth $200k MORE in the US but I'm certain that some of them went to try it on. If someone was worth $200k more in the states might they be able to say "how about $100k more and I do it from here?" I also suspect some of the big names are looking at coming back. Recent rumbling about Toronto becoming an AI center of excellence might hint at a certain UofT professor that we lost a few years back getting an itch to come home?
    - chongli 9y ago
      h1b databases Canadian engineers get TN visas, not H1Bs. TN visas give way more bargaining power to the employee.

Brain drain will continue until compensation in Canada rises to match compensation in the US.

by uiri 9y ago

Brain drain will continue until compensation in Canada rises to match compensation in the US.

astrodust 9y ago

Let it drain if it has to. We don't need a hyper-saturated VC market.

rlucas 9y ago
That doesn't make any sense. "Brain drain" is when your technologists leave (often going toward a more "hyper saturated VC" geography). What is left behind is the same amount of VC dollars but fewer technologists to build things. Which leads to more "saturation" all else equal. If you don't want the same SF Bay Area level of VC-funded craziness, the answer isn't to "let it drain" all the technologists out of Canada. The answer is to keep them home and have them build awesome stuff and profitable companies in Canada. (With a more sustainable / reasonable amount of VC funding.) A good way to sell that is to focus on all the things BESIDES Bay Area VC $ that Canada offers: lifestyle and values, visa / immigration ease, outdoor opportunities, land/house purchase prices (well, outside of a few spots), political stability, and strong support for local champion tech companies. But just saying "let it drain," ugh. That's terrible. Brain drains really are one of the nastiest things that can happen with semi-porous borders. Very harmful to a region when its technologists (or whatever other highly educated bunch) leave en masse.
- astrodust 9y ago
  What I'm saying is if the only way to retain the top-top talent is to pay outrageous, unsustainable wages, then it's better to let someone else take that hit and instead focus on making the best with what's left. Talent is a renewable resource as well. It's a fact that every year students graduate from university. If the market changes and Canadian firms can pay more competitive wages, either by getting more money or because Silicon Valley implodes, everything will sort itself out. Canada is just one country in a world of much bigger countries. To think we could retain 100% of our top talent is to over-state our importance. We should let some of our best and brightest go work abroad. We're not sending literally everyone, after all.

oneplusone 9y ago

If you factor in health care costs, housing costs, maternity leave, etc. Canada is a better deal. Our political climate isn't as toxic either.

tj-teej 9y ago
Sources?
jtmcmc 9y ago
when you consider that healthcare and decent maternity leave are generally included in any reasonable tech salary and that housing in toronto and vancouver is quite pricey the salary differential of 1/2 does not make up for it. I wish it did...
vmarsy 9y ago
A quick estimation [1] shows that a $130000 salary in the US is equivalent to around $105k / 139k CAD. There are some of the top companies in the SV who pays this as base salary, is is there 139k CAD companies in Montreal? What's the highest base salary for the local Netflix/Google/... of Canada? [1] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$130000+in+San+Francisco+in+Montreal+Canada https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=$130000+in+San+Francis...
- alexc05 9y ago
  I've done those sorts of calculations before and that aligns with roughly what I figured out at the time.
nasalgoat 9y ago
Canada is an amazing deal for US companies to open remote offices and save 50% of their employment costs. Forget the numerically lower salaries - factor in the dollar difference (20-30%) then factor in healthcare savings. Plus we speak English and share a lot of cultural similarities, and the time zone difference in Toronto is only 3 hours. Why more companies aren't doing it I just don't understand.
- 9y ago

alexc05 9y ago

As the others are saying, there are a lot of features to life in Canada which aren't made up for by a $20,000 difference in salary. It isn't perfect but consider for example the 2017 world happiness report: http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/HR17-Ch2.pdf http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017... Page 13 shows the world happiness ranking of Canada at #7 and USA at #14. After a certain point a bit of extra money isn't going to buy significantly more life-happiness. Of course - I hate to argue against higher pay in Canada - but it is far from the only factor.

poikniok 9y ago
What about a $200,000 difference in salary?
- alexc05 9y ago
  It depends where you start. Now, I typically don't see $200k salary differences but there might be some. If you browse Amazon, Google or Facebook in h1b databases for San Francisco or Seattle you see a range of roughly $130k to $160k. With outliers of course. If you peg that against $100k - $130 in Toronto you're going to ask yourself what portion of that increase is eaten by rent? Car? Commute time? Overtime"work culture"? Health Care? How far do I want to be from my parents? Do I want my children to grow up American? Am I a visible minority? Is the job in a region which is accepting of visible minorities ... or is it like Kansas where an Indian engineer was shot while being told to "go home"? http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting-indian-court/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/kansas-olathe-bar-shooting-... I'm not sure how many tech workers are really worth $200k MORE in the US but I'm certain that some of them went to try it on. If someone was worth $200k more in the states might they be able to say "how about $100k more and I do it from here?" I also suspect some of the big names are looking at coming back. Recent rumbling about Toronto becoming an AI center of excellence might hint at a certain UofT professor that we lost a few years back getting an itch to come home?
  - chongli 9y ago
    h1b databases Canadian engineers get TN visas, not H1Bs. TN visas give way more bargaining power to the employee.