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From the comments: My sister used to work for a large multinational that pressured people to come in on Saturdays. The employees would come in but they would

From the comments: My sister used to work for a large multinational that pressured people to come in on Saturdays. The employees would come in but they would work on personal tasks like paying bills and balancing their checkbooks. It was all for appearance and it just pissed off the employees. She left the company after this pressure started. Part of her Saturday "work" was looking for a new job. In my experience this is par for the course. Sure, you can force employees to spend more time in the office, but past a certain point they'll just find ways to satisfy your crazy demands only in the most technical sense possible.

Periodic 16y ago
It's a case of misplaced metrics. I can't find the name of the paper or the researcher, but I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. Measuring number of hours in the office is not a direct measurement of productivity, and these employees were meeting the metric, but only costing the company money, not making it any. Incentive structures are tricky.
- RyanMcGreal 16y ago
  >I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. After years of direct involvement in measuring productivity, I would accept that as a general axiom. I've likened it to badly applied wallpaper: push down a bubble and it just pops up somewhere else.
  - gruseom 16y ago
    So what would you say are the best ways to measure productivity?
    - captaink 16y ago
      I would say the best way is by the outcomes, by the results. By productivity - be it units produced, share price, value added... Productivity is not = hours worked.
      - ido 16y ago
        Yeah but that gets pretty vague pretty fast. How do you measure a programmer's productivity when you can't estimate exactly (and sometimes not even close) how much work something should take?
        neeleshs 16y ago
        I have not seen a software project where there is not enough work for somebody. What I've found useful, and which worked reasonably well for teams which have been working over a period of time together is to collectively estimate complexity of tasks that must be completed.Say on a scale of 1-5. That gives you a reasonably agreeable scale of measurement (not a universal scale, but the one that the team accepts). As time progresses, you see how many such tasks are completed by any person in a given time frame. Not that this is foolproof, or that it works right from the beginning of a project, but over a period of time, you tend to get a good sense of how productive each member is. [Edit: Typo fixed]
        ido 16y ago
        Sounds pretty decent, although there is still the problem that it doesn't tell you if someone is slacking off or is simply not very fast.
        VBprogrammer 16y ago
        Nor does it tell you anything about the quality of the work produced. Sometimes a job half done is worse than a job never started!
    - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
  - caffeine 16y ago
    Even if the metric is a direct business metric that it's manaagement's job to optimize (like profitability or number of users)? I've always thought it would be interesting to see the results if half of everybody's salary (including the CEO and the toner refill guy) was paid by dividends from shares of the company held in trust for this purpose. As in, every year, everyone's pay goes up/down by the same (relative) amount. What if, in addition, the shares held in trust were a closed pool, requiring employees to give up part of their bonus share to any new employees hired? The expected net outcome of hiring on profitability would then have to outweigh the decreased income from a (very slightly) reduced share of profits. I'm not certain that this is the ideal system of incentives (i.e. there might be local minima one could get stuck in), but it would certainly be an exciting experiment...
    - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
      Dan Pink would suggest that if you're trying to drive performance by tweaking monetary incentives, you're doing it wrong. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  I read of it via Joel Spolsky: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20081001/how-hard-could-it-be-sins-of-commissions.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20081001/how-hard-could-it-be-si... which cites a Harvard chap's book as a reference, and and http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000070.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000070.html which seems based on his experiences at Microsoft.
- mindcrime 16y ago
  It's a case of misplaced metrics. I can't find the name of the paper or the researcher, but I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. You may be thinking of the Hawthorne Effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
- robryan 16y ago
  This effect is a lot less pronounced in physical labour based jobs, it's harder to portray that your doing things in these jobs. Sure overall your productivity may be down over long hours but the extra time worked makes up for this. To take this to the extreme I'd say the place you get most value for pushing extra hours is a production line where an employee is repeatedly preforming one simple task.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    Actually I would say this is core to the whole issue. Management is still largely stuck in the mindset of a physical labor world. With physical labor if you force people to work 12 hour days you really will get close to 12 hours of work because as long as the body can swing a pick it can... swing a pick. The brain doesn't work like this, you can't push the brain past a certain point consistently. Management needs to catch up to the times. We don't pay CEO's millions of dollars to over see a bunch of people swinging picks.
- mchouza 16y ago
  I believe it's known as Campbell's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Law
  - Periodic 16y ago
    Thank you. That sums it up pretty concisely, though not very precisely. I wonder if Goodhart's law is more apt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodharts_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodharts_law
wildmXranat 16y ago
My first programming job after graduation had a paid Saturday requirement that crept in a couple of months after I started. I think I was the only one that said no to it. I didn't even think twice about the decision and Mondays felt a lot better from my perspective.
- blantonl 16y ago
  And you are no longer there.
  - minsight 16y ago
    No longer being there is a good thing.
electromagnetic 16y ago
What I found ironic in the post is that the CEO wants to implement a time-card system, but also wants his employees (probably a lot on salary) to work extended hours. I'm not sure how it is in the US, but here this would result in the company paying a shit-ton out at year end in banked time. Forcing your workers to do overtime and work a half-day on saturday would land a company paying near to two-months wages at year end for all its employees if they weren't careful. This would have killed an IT company for sure back in 2001.
- jackowayed 16y ago
  It depends on their contracts. If the contracts make them exempt workers (meaning they don't get overtime even if they work >40h, which almost certainly was the case) and also require them to work at least 40 hours a week or have the difference counted as vacation time, then the time cards could be used to ensure that the employees are meeting the 40 hour minimum, but the company wouldn't owe the people anything even though they were now measuring that some of them were working, say, 50 hours a week.
  - lsc 16y ago
    My understanding is that if you dock people part-days for not showing up, you can get in trouble if you don't pay time and a half overtime, even if your dudes are 'exempt'

Periodic 16y ago

It's a case of misplaced metrics. I can't find the name of the paper or the researcher, but I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. Measuring number of hours in the office is not a direct measurement of productivity, and these employees were meeting the metric, but only costing the company money, not making it any. Incentive structures are tricky.

RyanMcGreal 16y ago
>I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. After years of direct involvement in measuring productivity, I would accept that as a general axiom. I've likened it to badly applied wallpaper: push down a bubble and it just pops up somewhere else.
- gruseom 16y ago
  So what would you say are the best ways to measure productivity?
  - captaink 16y ago
    I would say the best way is by the outcomes, by the results. By productivity - be it units produced, share price, value added... Productivity is not = hours worked.
    - ido 16y ago
      Yeah but that gets pretty vague pretty fast. How do you measure a programmer's productivity when you can't estimate exactly (and sometimes not even close) how much work something should take?
      - neeleshs 16y ago
        I have not seen a software project where there is not enough work for somebody. What I've found useful, and which worked reasonably well for teams which have been working over a period of time together is to collectively estimate complexity of tasks that must be completed.Say on a scale of 1-5. That gives you a reasonably agreeable scale of measurement (not a universal scale, but the one that the team accepts). As time progresses, you see how many such tasks are completed by any person in a given time frame. Not that this is foolproof, or that it works right from the beginning of a project, but over a period of time, you tend to get a good sense of how productive each member is. [Edit: Typo fixed]
        ido 16y ago
        Sounds pretty decent, although there is still the problem that it doesn't tell you if someone is slacking off or is simply not very fast.
        VBprogrammer 16y ago
        Nor does it tell you anything about the quality of the work produced. Sometimes a job half done is worse than a job never started!
  - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
- caffeine 16y ago
  Even if the metric is a direct business metric that it's manaagement's job to optimize (like profitability or number of users)? I've always thought it would be interesting to see the results if half of everybody's salary (including the CEO and the toner refill guy) was paid by dividends from shares of the company held in trust for this purpose. As in, every year, everyone's pay goes up/down by the same (relative) amount. What if, in addition, the shares held in trust were a closed pool, requiring employees to give up part of their bonus share to any new employees hired? The expected net outcome of hiring on profitability would then have to outweigh the decreased income from a (very slightly) reduced share of profits. I'm not certain that this is the ideal system of incentives (i.e. there might be local minima one could get stuck in), but it would certainly be an exciting experiment...
  - RyanMcGreal 16y ago
    Dan Pink would suggest that if you're trying to drive performance by tweaking monetary incentives, you're doing it wrong. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
jodrellblank 16y ago
I read of it via Joel Spolsky: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20081001/how-hard-could-it-be-sins-of-commissions.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/20081001/how-hard-could-it-be-si... which cites a Harvard chap's book as a reference, and and http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000070.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000070.html which seems based on his experiences at Microsoft.
mindcrime 16y ago
It's a case of misplaced metrics. I can't find the name of the paper or the researcher, but I believe it's been shown that when you try to reward/punish some metric of productivity, invariably the employees will begin to maximize that metric, perhaps at the expense of productivity. You may be thinking of the Hawthorne Effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
robryan 16y ago
This effect is a lot less pronounced in physical labour based jobs, it's harder to portray that your doing things in these jobs. Sure overall your productivity may be down over long hours but the extra time worked makes up for this. To take this to the extreme I'd say the place you get most value for pushing extra hours is a production line where an employee is repeatedly preforming one simple task.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  Actually I would say this is core to the whole issue. Management is still largely stuck in the mindset of a physical labor world. With physical labor if you force people to work 12 hour days you really will get close to 12 hours of work because as long as the body can swing a pick it can... swing a pick. The brain doesn't work like this, you can't push the brain past a certain point consistently. Management needs to catch up to the times. We don't pay CEO's millions of dollars to over see a bunch of people swinging picks.
mchouza 16y ago
I believe it's known as Campbell's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Law
- Periodic 16y ago
  Thank you. That sums it up pretty concisely, though not very precisely. I wonder if Goodhart's law is more apt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodharts_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodharts_law

wildmXranat 16y ago

My first programming job after graduation had a paid Saturday requirement that crept in a couple of months after I started. I think I was the only one that said no to it. I didn't even think twice about the decision and Mondays felt a lot better from my perspective.

blantonl 16y ago
And you are no longer there.
- minsight 16y ago
  No longer being there is a good thing.

electromagnetic 16y ago

What I found ironic in the post is that the CEO wants to implement a time-card system, but also wants his employees (probably a lot on salary) to work extended hours. I'm not sure how it is in the US, but here this would result in the company paying a shit-ton out at year end in banked time. Forcing your workers to do overtime and work a half-day on saturday would land a company paying near to two-months wages at year end for all its employees if they weren't careful. This would have killed an IT company for sure back in 2001.

jackowayed 16y ago
It depends on their contracts. If the contracts make them exempt workers (meaning they don't get overtime even if they work >40h, which almost certainly was the case) and also require them to work at least 40 hours a week or have the difference counted as vacation time, then the time cards could be used to ensure that the employees are meeting the 40 hour minimum, but the company wouldn't owe the people anything even though they were now measuring that some of them were working, say, 50 hours a week.
- lsc 16y ago
  My understanding is that if you dock people part-days for not showing up, you can get in trouble if you don't pay time and a half overtime, even if your dudes are 'exempt'