8 ms·

In other news: West funds oppressive Arab states. Really, if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money. Funding terro

In other news: West funds oppressive Arab states. Really, if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money. Funding terrorists is illegal, why is funding oppressive governments OK and then it's suddenly not OK when they spend that money to oppress people?

czechdeveloper 9y ago
Let's not fool ourselves. We need that oil to keep business as usual going. Gigatons of liquid energy that fuels most of our civilization.
- dvhh 9y ago
  Let's not forget the material for our modern age : plastic
  - ljf 9y ago
    Don't forget Fertiliser - comes from gas not oil - but we'd be screwed without it: http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-supply-nitrogen-fertilizer/ http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-sup...
- redahs 9y ago
  Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin.
  - gm-conspiracy 9y ago
    So, democracies are exempt from human rights abuses? Would you support a tariff on IP exports (music, movies, tv shows)?
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    >"Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin." So lets apply that to Chinese imports. Let say that the US places one of the highest tariffs on Chinese imports since its one of the least democratic countries[1]. So China's economy grinds to a halt. But China is one of the largest purchasers of U.S debt so now both China and the U.S economies completely tank[2]. And then that has knock on effect on Africa where China is buying up minerals and investing in infrastructure projects. This would effectively tank the economies of North America, Asia and Africa. Does this still strike you as a viable idea? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index [2] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-i...
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Or China becomes more democratic and implements better worker safety and environmental regulations.
      - pm90 9y ago
        How do you propose that will happen exactly? Democracy is usually born out of stability, not revolution. Honestly, I hope China goes the way of Korea and slowly transitions into a more democratic country, but that is hardly a given. And revolutions in China have a nasty history of leaving millions of people dead/displaced and plunging the country into chaos. edit: after writing this comment, I'm not comfortable with my assertion. Democracy in England was established (or reinforced) after the English Civil War and Glorious Revolutions, democracy in the US after the Revolutionary war and in France after the French Revolution.... so I take that assertion back.
    - michaelt 9y ago
      Does this still strike you as a viable idea? Sure. Just announce the tariff will be phased in at 0.5% per year over 40 years.
- DenisM 9y ago
  US is self-sufficient in terms of oil production / consumption.
  - ljf 9y ago
    Is it? This (from 2015) suggests this won't happen until 2030 https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states-likely-self-sufficient-oil-2030s/ https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states... Also: http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-crude-oil http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-... Would be interested in some numbers that show otherwise.
    - DenisM 9y ago
      You are right, I misinterpreted various news. Thanks for pointing this out.
redahs 9y ago
> if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money Yes, but if we did something reasonable such as enact scaling import tariffs on exports from non-free countries in proportion to their level of human rights abuses as measured by a legislative scorecard of objectively observable public criteria, the neoliberals would claim that they learned tariffs were bad in Econ 101 and therefore that domestic tax policy on importers must be set by the WTO.
bogomipz 9y ago
So anyone that drives a car, buys anything that contains plastic, uses fertilizer, crayons or detergent is a "sponsor of terrorism" and an "oppressor"? That's absurd.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  Yet oil revenues are used to fund conflict.

czechdeveloper 9y ago

Let's not fool ourselves. We need that oil to keep business as usual going. Gigatons of liquid energy that fuels most of our civilization.

dvhh 9y ago
Let's not forget the material for our modern age : plastic
- ljf 9y ago
  Don't forget Fertiliser - comes from gas not oil - but we'd be screwed without it: http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-supply-nitrogen-fertilizer/ http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-sup...
redahs 9y ago
Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin.
- gm-conspiracy 9y ago
  So, democracies are exempt from human rights abuses? Would you support a tariff on IP exports (music, movies, tv shows)?
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin." So lets apply that to Chinese imports. Let say that the US places one of the highest tariffs on Chinese imports since its one of the least democratic countries[1]. So China's economy grinds to a halt. But China is one of the largest purchasers of U.S debt so now both China and the U.S economies completely tank[2]. And then that has knock on effect on Africa where China is buying up minerals and investing in infrastructure projects. This would effectively tank the economies of North America, Asia and Africa. Does this still strike you as a viable idea? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index [2] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-i...
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    Or China becomes more democratic and implements better worker safety and environmental regulations.
    - pm90 9y ago
      How do you propose that will happen exactly? Democracy is usually born out of stability, not revolution. Honestly, I hope China goes the way of Korea and slowly transitions into a more democratic country, but that is hardly a given. And revolutions in China have a nasty history of leaving millions of people dead/displaced and plunging the country into chaos. edit: after writing this comment, I'm not comfortable with my assertion. Democracy in England was established (or reinforced) after the English Civil War and Glorious Revolutions, democracy in the US after the Revolutionary war and in France after the French Revolution.... so I take that assertion back.
  - michaelt 9y ago
    Does this still strike you as a viable idea? Sure. Just announce the tariff will be phased in at 0.5% per year over 40 years.
DenisM 9y ago
US is self-sufficient in terms of oil production / consumption.
- ljf 9y ago
  Is it? This (from 2015) suggests this won't happen until 2030 https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states-likely-self-sufficient-oil-2030s/ https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states... Also: http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-crude-oil http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-... Would be interested in some numbers that show otherwise.
  - DenisM 9y ago
    You are right, I misinterpreted various news. Thanks for pointing this out.

redahs 9y ago

> if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money Yes, but if we did something reasonable such as enact scaling import tariffs on exports from non-free countries in proportion to their level of human rights abuses as measured by a legislative scorecard of objectively observable public criteria, the neoliberals would claim that they learned tariffs were bad in Econ 101 and therefore that domestic tax policy on importers must be set by the WTO.

bogomipz 9y ago

So anyone that drives a car, buys anything that contains plastic, uses fertilizer, crayons or detergent is a "sponsor of terrorism" and an "oppressor"? That's absurd.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Yet oil revenues are used to fund conflict.