3 ms·

As said, I have now clue about things in Japan, but in Germany, a court can definitely order the company to rehire you if the reason for firing was unlawful. In

As said, I have now clue about things in Japan, but in Germany, a court can definitely order the company to rehire you if the reason for firing was unlawful. In smaller companies coming back to that job usually isn't fun (as your boss usually was directly involved in the case), thus in these cases you usually get compensation of about a year's worth of wages. Bigger companies are usually pretty professional about these things. (Completely different domain, but just look at Apple and Samsung being in court while Samsung still being a supplier for Apple.)

thanksgiving 9y ago
I don't know about Germany but in the US, we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example
- yourapostasy 9y ago
  > ...we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example For bank tellers, I believe this is tracked via the federal agency FINRA, through AWC submittals. For the Wells Fargo employees, you likely are thinking of the brokers who were ordered by Wells Fargo management to fraudulently open accounts. Allegedly, many of these brokers then found out later after they were terminated from Wells Fargo that the bank marked their termination on a U5 form in a manner that all but ejects them from the financial services industry, forever [1]. In both of these cases, they are via mandatory regulatory notifications, and not like the Japanese cases discussed here where it sounds more informal. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-faces-scrutiny-for-black-marks-on-ex-employee-files.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-f...
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    FINRA is an industry group
    - yourapostasy 9y ago
      Thanks for the correction, it is a self-regulatory measure by the US financial services industry.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Finance is different get caught doing naughty things and you can be banned for life in the same way a Dr can be struck off
    - _jal 9y ago
      ... Unless you're C-level, in which case you merely lose your bonus at worst.
    - sedachv 9y ago
      The most famous financial criminal of the 1980s United States, Michael Milkin, is now a wealthy philanthropist living large in Los Angeles. The disincentive for large-scale financial crime in the United States is just not there.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        I think he was before the finance industry put this in place
  - TerminalJunkie 9y ago
    Planet Money did a podcast on this very thing http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/28/499805238/episode-732-bad-form-wells-fargo http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/28/499805238/episo...
- RyanMcGreal 9y ago
  America has some of the worst worker protection laws and regulations in the developed world: occupational health and safety; minimum wage; paid time off (vacation, illness, parental leave); lunch and other breaks; consecutive hours worked in a day; 'at-will' termination; and so on. It really is an extreme outlier.
  - mixedCase 9y ago
    On the other hand, at least when it comes to software developers, americans seem to be extremely well paid compared to the rest of us and they pay far less in tax. I'd make that trade any day, but then again that's just one industry and I'm just one person.
    - da02 9y ago
      Which country are you in? (The taxes vary depending on the U.S. state.)
    - brazzledazzle 9y ago
      It's been some time since I ran the numbers but when you isolate federal taxes and compare them the difference is stark. But when you combine all of our income taxes and compare the percentage the difference is much, much less significant. Federal, social security, state, state disability, etc. It does depend on the state though. If you add in health insurance costs since those are covered by the government in other countries the difference shrinks even more. When you combine it all and compare the amount of benefits and safety nets provided to other countries it kind of feels like you're being screwed. I guess getting paid more is nicer but raising children here and realizing that they may not make nearly as much money while having such small or irrelevant safety nets is a sobering experience.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Well they have to pay for all that military equipment somehow.
    - exelius 9y ago
euske 9y ago
I mentioned in some other topics, but Japan has a pretty good protection systems like most European countries on paper. The difference lies in what a law can't easily catch. They can put an enormous amount of informal obstacles to a so-called "bad" employee, from subtle changes of seating to relegating to a humiliating position. Each of them is annoying by itself, but they're smart enough to make sure that none of them are significant enough for litigation. Then there can be a group bullying. Because every other employee is equally afraid of the company, they can collectively act like an orchestrated attack even when there's no explicit order. Japanese team work at its finest.
- mallaidh 9y ago
  And that's exactly why there is power in a union, to quote Joe Hill; it has the potential to turn the situation around.
  - vsl 9y ago
    Again: union in the company you left of your own will (did you RTFA?) won't help you. Union in the company that won't hire you due to informal pressure won't help you either, because you aren't a member or working at the company.
    - bildung 9y ago
      This is specific to the US I think. In many other countries unions organize workers across a whole industrial sector, not just inside one company.
timwaagh 9y ago
this article is not about employees who got fired but (mostly) those who left.
ruleabidinguser 9y ago
For real? What would be the point of that? Seems so foolish of the germans...
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I'd guess the point of it is to actually give the laws requiring that you not fire employees for illegal reasons teeth.
  - ruleabidinguser 9y ago
    No one wants to work for an employer who wants them gone, and vice versa.

thanksgiving 9y ago

I don't know about Germany but in the US, we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example

yourapostasy 9y ago
> ...we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example For bank tellers, I believe this is tracked via the federal agency FINRA, through AWC submittals. For the Wells Fargo employees, you likely are thinking of the brokers who were ordered by Wells Fargo management to fraudulently open accounts. Allegedly, many of these brokers then found out later after they were terminated from Wells Fargo that the bank marked their termination on a U5 form in a manner that all but ejects them from the financial services industry, forever [1]. In both of these cases, they are via mandatory regulatory notifications, and not like the Japanese cases discussed here where it sounds more informal. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-faces-scrutiny-for-black-marks-on-ex-employee-files.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-f...
- ch4s3 9y ago
  FINRA is an industry group
  - yourapostasy 9y ago
    Thanks for the correction, it is a self-regulatory measure by the US financial services industry.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Finance is different get caught doing naughty things and you can be banned for life in the same way a Dr can be struck off
  - _jal 9y ago
    ... Unless you're C-level, in which case you merely lose your bonus at worst.
  - sedachv 9y ago
    The most famous financial criminal of the 1980s United States, Michael Milkin, is now a wealthy philanthropist living large in Los Angeles. The disincentive for large-scale financial crime in the United States is just not there.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      I think he was before the finance industry put this in place
- TerminalJunkie 9y ago
  Planet Money did a podcast on this very thing http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/28/499805238/episode-732-bad-form-wells-fargo http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/28/499805238/episo...
RyanMcGreal 9y ago
America has some of the worst worker protection laws and regulations in the developed world: occupational health and safety; minimum wage; paid time off (vacation, illness, parental leave); lunch and other breaks; consecutive hours worked in a day; 'at-will' termination; and so on. It really is an extreme outlier.
- mixedCase 9y ago
  On the other hand, at least when it comes to software developers, americans seem to be extremely well paid compared to the rest of us and they pay far less in tax. I'd make that trade any day, but then again that's just one industry and I'm just one person.
  - da02 9y ago
    Which country are you in? (The taxes vary depending on the U.S. state.)
  - brazzledazzle 9y ago
    It's been some time since I ran the numbers but when you isolate federal taxes and compare them the difference is stark. But when you combine all of our income taxes and compare the percentage the difference is much, much less significant. Federal, social security, state, state disability, etc. It does depend on the state though. If you add in health insurance costs since those are covered by the government in other countries the difference shrinks even more. When you combine it all and compare the amount of benefits and safety nets provided to other countries it kind of feels like you're being screwed. I guess getting paid more is nicer but raising children here and realizing that they may not make nearly as much money while having such small or irrelevant safety nets is a sobering experience.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Well they have to pay for all that military equipment somehow.
  - exelius 9y ago

euske 9y ago

I mentioned in some other topics, but Japan has a pretty good protection systems like most European countries on paper. The difference lies in what a law can't easily catch. They can put an enormous amount of informal obstacles to a so-called "bad" employee, from subtle changes of seating to relegating to a humiliating position. Each of them is annoying by itself, but they're smart enough to make sure that none of them are significant enough for litigation. Then there can be a group bullying. Because every other employee is equally afraid of the company, they can collectively act like an orchestrated attack even when there's no explicit order. Japanese team work at its finest.

mallaidh 9y ago
And that's exactly why there is power in a union, to quote Joe Hill; it has the potential to turn the situation around.
- vsl 9y ago
  Again: union in the company you left of your own will (did you RTFA?) won't help you. Union in the company that won't hire you due to informal pressure won't help you either, because you aren't a member or working at the company.
  - bildung 9y ago
    This is specific to the US I think. In many other countries unions organize workers across a whole industrial sector, not just inside one company.

timwaagh 9y ago

this article is not about employees who got fired but (mostly) those who left.

ruleabidinguser 9y ago

For real? What would be the point of that? Seems so foolish of the germans...

emodendroket 9y ago
I'd guess the point of it is to actually give the laws requiring that you not fire employees for illegal reasons teeth.
- ruleabidinguser 9y ago
  No one wants to work for an employer who wants them gone, and vice versa.