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Dubious sources, to say the least. This dumb conversation pops up every single time the Japanese criminal justice system comes up, and no one has a decent sourc

Dubious sources, to say the least. This dumb conversation pops up every single time the Japanese criminal justice system comes up, and no one has a decent source--say for example, something in Japanese. First of all, the conviction rate in the US is 85+% last time I checked. Secondly, Japanese suspects confess. The theory is that they're coerced, but that requires one to accept a lot of speculation about the psychological impact of prolonged interrogations. Finally, the police in Japan are essentially invisible, so you need to be suspicious to even be on their radar. If you attract that kind of attention, you don't belong here, and they're going to let you know. It may not be what you want to hear, but that's just how it works here. It's the same everywhere else. In America, you can drive a BMW with New York plates from New Orleans to Los Angeles, and if you get pulled over, good luck to you.

stupidcar 9y ago
Do you consider Amnesty International to be a decent source? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abusive-detention-system-after-murder-conviction-quashed/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abu...
- nihonde 9y ago
  In a word: no. Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. Can anyone point to source from within Japan?
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. That's what this thread is about, isn't it?
    - nihonde 9y ago
      No. There are serious and so far unfounded allegations of coercion of suspects and witnesses in this thread. That's not what I meant by "a different attitude toward civil rights".
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        It almost seems that you're trying to have it both ways. Routinely conducting three weeks (or whatever period) of ceaseless interrogation is as bad for civil rights as it is for actually finding the truth in an investigation. Either tell us that such practices are fine because cultural differences, or tell us convincingly that they don't actually happen. Pick one.
mchaver 9y ago
The conviction rates are available in English and Japanese provided by the Ministry of Justice. Wikipedia in Japanese - Criminal Trial Judgements (判決確定数 - number of judicial decisions, 有罪 - guilty, 無罪 - not guilty) https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5%88%91%E4%BA%8B%E5%8F%B8%E6%B3%95#.E5.88.91.E4.BA.8B.E8.A3.81.E5.88.A4.E3.81.AE.E5.88.A4.E6.B1.BA.E7.A2.BA.E5.AE.9A.E6.95.B0.E3.81.AE.E7.A8.AE.E9.A1.9E.E5.88.A5.E3.81.AE.E5.86.85.E8.A8.B3 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5... At the bottom of the table it links all the data to http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp Looks pretty unofficial but that is Japan Ministry of Justice website and is linked by the more official looking one http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_hakusho2.html http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_hakusho2.html Ministry of Justice White Papers in English http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/nendo_nfm.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/nendo_nfm.html Judgement rates 2005-2014 in English http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html
- nihonde 9y ago
  I'm not challenging the conviction rate. I'm challenging the accusations of coercion.
  - krapp 9y ago
    You're not challenging them with anything more than personal opinion. Which is fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion, although there are other people living in Japan in this thread who disagree with it. However, as you're insisting that Japanese-only sources are necessary to consider the claim to be reliable, perhaps you can provide the necessary Japanese sources which contradict it?
    - nihonde 9y ago
      The burden of proof is on the accusers. I'm only asking for a single credible source from inside Japan, and in Japanese. Some anecdotes from other commenters is obviously inadequate. I've seen this trope about Japanese police strong-arming people into confessions in all the usual sources for misinformation about Japan on the internet--hence my skepticism. What if the Japanese criminal justice system is just really well run? That is an equally credible conclusion until proven wrong.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> First of all, the conviction rate in the US is 85+% last time I checked. So Japan's acquittal rate is only 15 times lower than one of the most prison-happy countries in the world. > Secondly, Japanese suspects confess. The theory is that they're coerced, but that requires one to accept a lot of speculation about the psychological impact of prolonged interrogations. ...Which speculation is that, exactly? Are you saying you don't believe that people will do almost anything to escape after being tormented for days or weeks? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, please. > you need to be suspicious to even be on their radar. "The innocent have nothing to hide." Uh huh.
brazzledazzle 9y ago
I get that you have a different culture but if someday in the future a false conviction happens to you I wonder if you'll feel the same.
- lovemenot 9y ago
  Of course not. But this is purely an emotional argument. A hypothetical system that is in theory wide open to abuse, but where, in practice abuse rarely happens, should be compared favourably with another which has strong theoretic abuse controls, yet in practice is abused systematically. At least until such time as systematic violation is common in the former and the latter lives up to its ideals.
  - brazzledazzle 9y ago
    That's a great point, thanks. I think perhaps this triggers an instinctive fear of danger that you can't size up because it's (purportedly) hidden away. Even though one is ostensibly better than the other in a practical sense, the fear of being randomly victimized by those in power with no ability to right it both socially and legally, even after the fact, is pretty chilling. If you assume for a moment that the allegations are true, that powerlessness is exemplified in this thread–you have someone from Japan basically saying that if you're even under suspicion you probably did something to deserve it. Coming from somewhere like the US that scares me more even if that fear is irrational in a practical sense.
- nihonde 9y ago
  Police abuse happens everywhere. I said that somewhere above. I'm not as easily convinced that Japan's high conviction rate is due to coercion. I'm more afraid of kangaroo courts in places like Indonesia or the Middle East or small-town America than I am of being squeezed for something I didn't do in Japan. I'm 100% confident that no one can coerce a false confession from me in 23 days without physical torture. 100 percent.
  - brazzledazzle 9y ago
    If they were inclined to, they could easily deprive you of enough water not to kill you but make you very cooperative. I'm not saying they would do it, I know very little about Japan and how it works there. I just know the tactic isn't unheard of for interrogations in the US and some other countries.

stupidcar 9y ago

Do you consider Amnesty International to be a decent source? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abusive-detention-system-after-murder-conviction-quashed/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abu...

nihonde 9y ago
In a word: no. Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. Can anyone point to source from within Japan?
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. That's what this thread is about, isn't it?
  - nihonde 9y ago
    No. There are serious and so far unfounded allegations of coercion of suspects and witnesses in this thread. That's not what I meant by "a different attitude toward civil rights".
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      It almost seems that you're trying to have it both ways. Routinely conducting three weeks (or whatever period) of ceaseless interrogation is as bad for civil rights as it is for actually finding the truth in an investigation. Either tell us that such practices are fine because cultural differences, or tell us convincingly that they don't actually happen. Pick one.

mchaver 9y ago

The conviction rates are available in English and Japanese provided by the Ministry of Justice. Wikipedia in Japanese - Criminal Trial Judgements (判決確定数 - number of judicial decisions, 有罪 - guilty, 無罪 - not guilty) https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5%88%91%E4%BA%8B%E5%8F%B8%E6%B3%95#.E5.88.91.E4.BA.8B.E8.A3.81.E5.88.A4.E3.81.AE.E5.88.A4.E6.B1.BA.E7.A2.BA.E5.AE.9A.E6.95.B0.E3.81.AE.E7.A8.AE.E9.A1.9E.E5.88.A5.E3.81.AE.E5.86.85.E8.A8.B3 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E5... At the bottom of the table it links all the data to http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp Looks pretty unofficial but that is Japan Ministry of Justice website and is linked by the more official looking one http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_hakusho2.html http://www.moj.go.jp/housouken/houso_hakusho2.html Ministry of Justice White Papers in English http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/nendo_nfm.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/nendo_nfm.html Judgement rates 2005-2014 in English http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html

nihonde 9y ago
I'm not challenging the conviction rate. I'm challenging the accusations of coercion.
- krapp 9y ago
  You're not challenging them with anything more than personal opinion. Which is fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion, although there are other people living in Japan in this thread who disagree with it. However, as you're insisting that Japanese-only sources are necessary to consider the claim to be reliable, perhaps you can provide the necessary Japanese sources which contradict it?
  - nihonde 9y ago
    The burden of proof is on the accusers. I'm only asking for a single credible source from inside Japan, and in Japanese. Some anecdotes from other commenters is obviously inadequate. I've seen this trope about Japanese police strong-arming people into confessions in all the usual sources for misinformation about Japan on the internet--hence my skepticism. What if the Japanese criminal justice system is just really well run? That is an equally credible conclusion until proven wrong.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> First of all, the conviction rate in the US is 85+% last time I checked. So Japan's acquittal rate is only 15 times lower than one of the most prison-happy countries in the world. > Secondly, Japanese suspects confess. The theory is that they're coerced, but that requires one to accept a lot of speculation about the psychological impact of prolonged interrogations. ...Which speculation is that, exactly? Are you saying you don't believe that people will do almost anything to escape after being tormented for days or weeks? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, please. > you need to be suspicious to even be on their radar. "The innocent have nothing to hide." Uh huh.

brazzledazzle 9y ago

I get that you have a different culture but if someday in the future a false conviction happens to you I wonder if you'll feel the same.

lovemenot 9y ago
Of course not. But this is purely an emotional argument. A hypothetical system that is in theory wide open to abuse, but where, in practice abuse rarely happens, should be compared favourably with another which has strong theoretic abuse controls, yet in practice is abused systematically. At least until such time as systematic violation is common in the former and the latter lives up to its ideals.
- brazzledazzle 9y ago
  That's a great point, thanks. I think perhaps this triggers an instinctive fear of danger that you can't size up because it's (purportedly) hidden away. Even though one is ostensibly better than the other in a practical sense, the fear of being randomly victimized by those in power with no ability to right it both socially and legally, even after the fact, is pretty chilling. If you assume for a moment that the allegations are true, that powerlessness is exemplified in this thread–you have someone from Japan basically saying that if you're even under suspicion you probably did something to deserve it. Coming from somewhere like the US that scares me more even if that fear is irrational in a practical sense.
nihonde 9y ago
Police abuse happens everywhere. I said that somewhere above. I'm not as easily convinced that Japan's high conviction rate is due to coercion. I'm more afraid of kangaroo courts in places like Indonesia or the Middle East or small-town America than I am of being squeezed for something I didn't do in Japan. I'm 100% confident that no one can coerce a false confession from me in 23 days without physical torture. 100 percent.
- brazzledazzle 9y ago
  If they were inclined to, they could easily deprive you of enough water not to kill you but make you very cooperative. I'm not saying they would do it, I know very little about Japan and how it works there. I just know the tactic isn't unheard of for interrogations in the US and some other countries.