11 ms·

Well, this is what unions are for. In the countries I know, union membership gets you legal costs insurance for work related cases (for exactly these power dyna

Well, this is what unions are for. In the countries I know, union membership gets you legal costs insurance for work related cases (for exactly these power dynamics). And economies of scale usually mean that unions have pretty good employment law attorneys. Granted, I have no idea how it works in Japan.

izacus 9y ago
Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In a lot of these environments corporations like Konami have enough power to essentially make you unemployable. Not having a positive reference (or even having an unofficial black mark against you) from them can easily be end of your career in the field. Especially if you slandered (or, god forbid, sued!) your previous employer.
- mattmanser 9y ago
  Strong unions could put an end to the untouchable concept completely.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Strong unions comes with their own issues. Many unions turn into unlabelled mafia.
    - pulse7 9y ago
      ...or into a labelled one (Sicilian Mafia).
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Certainly it's possible, and yet I don't think there is much other way for employees to achieve any sort of political power over their employers. It's also probably worth mentioning, since we're talking about Japan, the extent to which the worlds of Japanese business and Japanese organized crime are intertwined.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Not so sure. The relations between mafia and unions seems to me unique to the US, or at least not so widespread. Unions can indeed have issues (on one end corrupt leadership that just pads their bank accounts or screws those that they're supposed to represent, on the other end over-privileging of a certain field), but turning into "unlabelled mafia" is not a core trait.
- bildung 9y ago
  As said, I have now clue about things in Japan, but in Germany, a court can definitely order the company to rehire you if the reason for firing was unlawful. In smaller companies coming back to that job usually isn't fun (as your boss usually was directly involved in the case), thus in these cases you usually get compensation of about a year's worth of wages. Bigger companies are usually pretty professional about these things. (Completely different domain, but just look at Apple and Samsung being in court while Samsung still being a supplier for Apple.)
  - thanksgiving 9y ago
    I don't know about Germany but in the US, we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example
    - yourapostasy 9y ago
      > ...we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example For bank tellers, I believe this is tracked via the federal agency FINRA, through AWC submittals. For the Wells Fargo employees, you likely are thinking of the brokers who were ordered by Wells Fargo management to fraudulently open accounts. Allegedly, many of these brokers then found out later after they were terminated from Wells Fargo that the bank marked their termination on a U5 form in a manner that all but ejects them from the financial services industry, forever [1]. In both of these cases, they are via mandatory regulatory notifications, and not like the Japanese cases discussed here where it sounds more informal. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-faces-scrutiny-for-black-marks-on-ex-employee-files.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-f...
      - ch4s3 9y ago
        FINRA is an industry group
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". Unions forced the typical work week down to 40 hours from 60-90. Certainly they could make a company stop harassing a few ex-employees.
  - nnfy 9y ago
    I think the reduction from 60-90 to 40 happened over the span of many rehirings. I think you're giving unions too much credit for microscale protections.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      What interest group besides unions had any interest in establishing a forty-hour work week?
      - sqeaky 9y ago
        I don't know an accurate answer to your question, but lets presume unions did it all. I the GPs point is that having the power to change culture over the course of decades does not guarantee the ability to fix a single problem for a single individual.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Well, if the unions managed to secure reforms such that that person's problem would not occur then they'd solve it. It certainly seems more likely to help more people than doing everything piecemeal and on an individual basis.
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      A strong enough union can force all kinds of things, for better or worse. Whatever a company may gain by harassing a few ex-employees is nothing compared to the damage done by your entire workforce walking off the job.
- distances 9y ago
  Many countries have laws mandating that a company has to provide a positive or neutral letter of reference for all leaving employees. Apparently not the case in Japan though.
  - jsmeaton 9y ago
    Really? Then what's the point? If a reference isn't honest then why trust them at all.
    - x0 9y ago
      What if you didn't do anything bad, but your boss just disliked you? A bad reference would make sure you never get another job in that industry
  - pipio21 9y ago
    Which is really stupid by the way... This happens in Germany but it just means that if someone has a simple neutral letter of reference, the person herself is a terrible worker. You are making the scale from 0 to 10 into another scale of 5 to ten. Employers are not stupid and in fact they have developed their own codes to express whatever they want to express to other employers they have good relationships with. The same happens in China where it is offensive to say: NO! So , instead of telling it, they wait and tell you Yes(!!) There is an indirect code to translate the time and emphasis employed by the a yes into a no everybody agrees with.
- lawik 9y ago
  In countries where unions can cover your legal costs in work-related conflicts with employers/ex-employers this at least counteracts the power assymetry. Which might mean that you can still put your experience on your resumé without worrying about Konami going after you. It is obviously not a flawless protection, especially not in terms of backroom business and that sort of quiet slander. But it does have the potential to counter some of these aggressive methods.
- walterstucco 9y ago
  > Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In Italy we had the popular article 18 of the workers' statute that stated that if someone got fired without a dismissal for cause the company was obliged to rehire the worker.
- SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
  > Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable" Maybe not, but there most certainly are penalties for such behaviour, see: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/blacklisted-workers-win-10m-payout-from-construction-firms https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/blacklisted... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/building-industry-blacklist-whistleblower-sues-for-victimisation-alan-wainwright https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/building-in... Important to note that this "blacklist" was "clandestine " and "a closely guarded secret", i.e. the people doing it knew that it was entirely illegal.
- frobozz 9y ago
  If you have been bullied out of, or illegally fired from, a workplace, I don't imagine you'd actually want your old job back. What you would want is enough money to cover your living expenses for long enough to get a job you do want. If you slander your previous employer, then you deserve it if your career comes to an end. A successful lawsuit against a previous employer wouldn't be likely to make you untouchable. However, I could see how an unsuccessful one would.
tomohawk 9y ago
Unions are just another source of abuse for workers. Their leaders often make much more than those they represent. You have to pay the dues, even when you know the union is going to waste the money on this type of largess, as well as on politicians you don't agree with and who you know aren't going to help you anyway. Got talent? It doesn't matter. In union jobs, it's the politically connected and those who have been in the union the longest that will get the job.
- zanny 9y ago
  Unions are organizations like any other. You can structure it on merit or on politics, and you can't blanket all unions as acting the same way. Most have awful charters meant to just enfranchise the established old guard at the expense of new blood, but they don't have to do it that way. It is also a bit funny to demonize unions in a conversation about a company that uses its own largess to ruin the lives of former employees.
  - kenoh 9y ago
    I have to agree with you on the the humor of that. It's the original "But her emails".
  - tomohawk 9y ago
    Perhaps you could point me to some unions that operate in this egalitarian way. I haven't seen them. As a thought experiment, just how would a union decide to protect or not protect a worker in a certain situation? By adherence to union rules? These are often inflexible, counterproductive, and morale destroying. Have you ever worked in a shop where you were not allowed to plug or unplug an appliance because thats a job for the electricians union? I have. It took several weeks to install a copier because of the unions involved. The movers couldn't unplug the thing, so they left when they saw it was plugged in. That company is no longer in business. What happened to the workers? Perhaps the workers could be protected by always siding with the worker, even when the worker is not good at what they do or is abusive? Sounds like some police unions.
  - lightedman 9y ago

izacus 9y ago

Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In a lot of these environments corporations like Konami have enough power to essentially make you unemployable. Not having a positive reference (or even having an unofficial black mark against you) from them can easily be end of your career in the field. Especially if you slandered (or, god forbid, sued!) your previous employer.

mattmanser 9y ago
Strong unions could put an end to the untouchable concept completely.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Strong unions comes with their own issues. Many unions turn into unlabelled mafia.
  - pulse7 9y ago
    ...or into a labelled one (Sicilian Mafia).
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Certainly it's possible, and yet I don't think there is much other way for employees to achieve any sort of political power over their employers. It's also probably worth mentioning, since we're talking about Japan, the extent to which the worlds of Japanese business and Japanese organized crime are intertwined.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Not so sure. The relations between mafia and unions seems to me unique to the US, or at least not so widespread. Unions can indeed have issues (on one end corrupt leadership that just pads their bank accounts or screws those that they're supposed to represent, on the other end over-privileging of a certain field), but turning into "unlabelled mafia" is not a core trait.
bildung 9y ago
As said, I have now clue about things in Japan, but in Germany, a court can definitely order the company to rehire you if the reason for firing was unlawful. In smaller companies coming back to that job usually isn't fun (as your boss usually was directly involved in the case), thus in these cases you usually get compensation of about a year's worth of wages. Bigger companies are usually pretty professional about these things. (Completely different domain, but just look at Apple and Samsung being in court while Samsung still being a supplier for Apple.)
- thanksgiving 9y ago
  I don't know about Germany but in the US, we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example
  - yourapostasy 9y ago
    > ...we apparently have a do not hire list that goes across company lines for even positions like bank tellers? There was no visible public outrage against any company that refused to hire former Wells Fargo employees for example For bank tellers, I believe this is tracked via the federal agency FINRA, through AWC submittals. For the Wells Fargo employees, you likely are thinking of the brokers who were ordered by Wells Fargo management to fraudulently open accounts. Allegedly, many of these brokers then found out later after they were terminated from Wells Fargo that the bank marked their termination on a U5 form in a manner that all but ejects them from the financial services industry, forever [1]. In both of these cases, they are via mandatory regulatory notifications, and not like the Japanese cases discussed here where it sounds more informal. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-faces-scrutiny-for-black-marks-on-ex-employee-files.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/dealbook/wells-f...
    - ch4s3 9y ago
      FINRA is an industry group
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". Unions forced the typical work week down to 40 hours from 60-90. Certainly they could make a company stop harassing a few ex-employees.
- nnfy 9y ago
  I think the reduction from 60-90 to 40 happened over the span of many rehirings. I think you're giving unions too much credit for microscale protections.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    What interest group besides unions had any interest in establishing a forty-hour work week?
    - sqeaky 9y ago
      I don't know an accurate answer to your question, but lets presume unions did it all. I the GPs point is that having the power to change culture over the course of decades does not guarantee the ability to fix a single problem for a single individual.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Well, if the unions managed to secure reforms such that that person's problem would not occur then they'd solve it. It certainly seems more likely to help more people than doing everything piecemeal and on an individual basis.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    A strong enough union can force all kinds of things, for better or worse. Whatever a company may gain by harassing a few ex-employees is nothing compared to the damage done by your entire workforce walking off the job.
distances 9y ago
Many countries have laws mandating that a company has to provide a positive or neutral letter of reference for all leaving employees. Apparently not the case in Japan though.
- jsmeaton 9y ago
  Really? Then what's the point? If a reference isn't honest then why trust them at all.
  - x0 9y ago
    What if you didn't do anything bad, but your boss just disliked you? A bad reference would make sure you never get another job in that industry
- pipio21 9y ago
  Which is really stupid by the way... This happens in Germany but it just means that if someone has a simple neutral letter of reference, the person herself is a terrible worker. You are making the scale from 0 to 10 into another scale of 5 to ten. Employers are not stupid and in fact they have developed their own codes to express whatever they want to express to other employers they have good relationships with. The same happens in China where it is offensive to say: NO! So , instead of telling it, they wait and tell you Yes(!!) There is an indirect code to translate the time and emphasis employed by the a yes into a no everybody agrees with.
lawik 9y ago
In countries where unions can cover your legal costs in work-related conflicts with employers/ex-employers this at least counteracts the power assymetry. Which might mean that you can still put your experience on your resumé without worrying about Konami going after you. It is obviously not a flawless protection, especially not in terms of backroom business and that sort of quiet slander. But it does have the potential to counter some of these aggressive methods.
walterstucco 9y ago
> Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In Italy we had the popular article 18 of the workers' statute that stated that if someone got fired without a dismissal for cause the company was obliged to rehire the worker.
SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
> Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable" Maybe not, but there most certainly are penalties for such behaviour, see: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/blacklisted-workers-win-10m-payout-from-construction-firms https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/blacklisted... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/building-industry-blacklist-whistleblower-sues-for-victimisation-alan-wainwright https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/21/building-in... Important to note that this "blacklist" was "clandestine " and "a closely guarded secret", i.e. the people doing it knew that it was entirely illegal.
frobozz 9y ago
If you have been bullied out of, or illegally fired from, a workplace, I don't imagine you'd actually want your old job back. What you would want is enough money to cover your living expenses for long enough to get a job you do want. If you slander your previous employer, then you deserve it if your career comes to an end. A successful lawsuit against a previous employer wouldn't be likely to make you untouchable. However, I could see how an unsuccessful one would.

tomohawk 9y ago

Unions are just another source of abuse for workers. Their leaders often make much more than those they represent. You have to pay the dues, even when you know the union is going to waste the money on this type of largess, as well as on politicians you don't agree with and who you know aren't going to help you anyway. Got talent? It doesn't matter. In union jobs, it's the politically connected and those who have been in the union the longest that will get the job.

zanny 9y ago
Unions are organizations like any other. You can structure it on merit or on politics, and you can't blanket all unions as acting the same way. Most have awful charters meant to just enfranchise the established old guard at the expense of new blood, but they don't have to do it that way. It is also a bit funny to demonize unions in a conversation about a company that uses its own largess to ruin the lives of former employees.
- kenoh 9y ago
  I have to agree with you on the the humor of that. It's the original "But her emails".
- tomohawk 9y ago
  Perhaps you could point me to some unions that operate in this egalitarian way. I haven't seen them. As a thought experiment, just how would a union decide to protect or not protect a worker in a certain situation? By adherence to union rules? These are often inflexible, counterproductive, and morale destroying. Have you ever worked in a shop where you were not allowed to plug or unplug an appliance because thats a job for the electricians union? I have. It took several weeks to install a copier because of the unions involved. The movers couldn't unplug the thing, so they left when they saw it was plugged in. That company is no longer in business. What happened to the workers? Perhaps the workers could be protected by always siding with the worker, even when the worker is not good at what they do or is abusive? Sounds like some police unions.
- lightedman 9y ago