16 ms·

One thing we're overlooking is that even if these actions are illegal, employees are rarely in a position to do anything about it. The power asymmetry is vast.

One thing we're overlooking is that even if these actions are illegal, employees are rarely in a position to do anything about it. The power asymmetry is vast. Most employees don't have savings, especially in the game industry, and they'd regret spending any of it on courts. Could the courts even do much? Having newspapers write an article about it is probably one of the more effective ways of dealing with this.

visarga 9y ago
If the courts function like police in Japan, then there is no hope. If police arrests you it's 99% sure they will get a conviction. It's a matter of saving face for them to convict everyone they arrest. You are judged by the cop, then rubber stamp sentenced by the judge.
- glandium 9y ago
  Arguably, the flip side is that you're not prosecuted unless they're near certain they can nail you.
  - mc32 9y ago
    I think that is of very little consolation for two reasons: 1. People don't get murdered, instead they die of "heart attacks," or they "accidentally fell down a stairwell" and the perp goes free. 2. They can keep you detained without representation for quite some time, in the meantime you are worn down physically and psychologically till you just want to make it "go away" so you sign a "confession" letter.
    - bitwize 9y ago
      You seem to be confusing Japan with the United States.
      - mc32 9y ago
        I'd suggest you read up about how the legal system works in Japan before you blurt out a facile quip: Confessions[1] and other unpleasantness[2]. [1]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/10/japan-forced-confessions-wrong-convictions-161010084400226.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/10/japan-forc... [2]https://gaijinass.com/2011/01/02/7-brutal-realities-regarding-arrest-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2011/01/02/7-brutal-realities-regardin...
        nihonde 9y ago
        Dubious sources, to say the least. This dumb conversation pops up every single time the Japanese criminal justice system comes up, and no one has a decent source--say for example, something in Japanese. First of all, the conviction rate in the US is 85+% last time I checked. Secondly, Japanese suspects confess. The theory is that they're coerced, but that requires one to accept a lot of speculation about the psychological impact of prolonged interrogations. Finally, the police in Japan are essentially invisible, so you need to be suspicious to even be on their radar. If you attract that kind of attention, you don't belong here, and they're going to let you know. It may not be what you want to hear, but that's just how it works here. It's the same everywhere else. In America, you can drive a BMW with New York plates from New Orleans to Los Angeles, and if you get pulled over, good luck to you.
        stupidcar 9y ago
        Do you consider Amnesty International to be a decent source? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abusive-detention-system-after-murder-conviction-quashed/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abu...
        nihonde 9y ago
        In a word: no. Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. Can anyone point to source from within Japan?
    - namlem 9y ago
      They can keep you two weeks (as opposed to two days in the US) without filing charges. As long as you don't confess, they won't actually bring charges unless they have compelling evidence.
      - glandium 9y ago
        I think it's 48 hours in Japan too.
        mc32 9y ago
        It's 23 days according to[1] which in an unheated (or conversely uncooled) cell along with "confess even if you didn't do it, it will make it easier" spiel can be hard to withstand. [1]http://japan.embassy.gov.au/tkyo/arrests.html http://japan.embassy.gov.au/tkyo/arrests.html
        joecool1029 9y ago
        Call me skeptical regarding being held without charge in Japan. I know of a certain infamous French national that was held for months without charge there. [1]. The loophole I guess was adding a second charge when the first 'grace period' expired. [1]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34217495 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34217495
        elmigranto 9y ago
        > held without charge > adding a second charge Okay.
        glandium 9y ago
        My bad, I misremembered, the base is actually 3 days (72 hours, that's the number I actually knew, but I mixed up with something else), and can be prolonged for 10 days by prosecution if a judge allows it, and can be prolonged for 10 more days after that, again validated by a judge. After that, the detainee needs to be either charged or released. Supposedly, the extensions are for cases where there is risk of destruction of evidence or disappearance. Wikipedia cites some (old, 1987) numbers that 85% of arrested detainees were kept for longer than 72 hours and more than a third were held without charge for longer than ten days. Interestingly enough (having now done some minimal research), for terrorism cases, you can be detained up to 28 (!) days without a charge in the UK. https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/comparative-law-study-2010-pre-charge-detention.pdf https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/...
    - petre 9y ago
      A judge can keep you jailed in the US indefinitely for contempt of the court. See the Martin Armstrong case.
      - mc32 9y ago
        Exceptions, exceptions. We're talking routine procedure in Japan --which I love btw., but you gotta face the reality of how the justice system works.
        BearGoesChirp 9y ago
        In which case the routine in the US is to over charge them, hold them without bail (by ensuring bail is too high for them to be able to pay), and scare them into taking a plea deal. And isn't a plea deal a kind of confession?
        mc32 9y ago
        Yeah, I'm sorry mate, you're absolutely right. There is no problem in Japan as it regards civil rights. It's my mistake. Obviously these problems only exist in the US so, while we are specifically talking about judicial issues in Japan, it's beside the point because there are no issues here.
        BearGoesChirp 9y ago
        My point was that both systems are similar in coercing a plea deal, but do so through different means. They are also similar it outcomes when you count in plea deals and not just court cases that got to trail. This was to point out that the systems like have a common flaw creating a common problem. This was said in response to other comments, not as a top level comment. So, did you really interpret me as saying Japan didn't have a problem? Is there somewhere where I could clarify my stance (a bit too late to edit the post now, but for future reference)?
    - oelmekki 9y ago
      Which are traits you find just as is in a dictature. Do you have evidences supporting this claim?
      - ekianjo 9y ago
        If a woman says you touched her in the train, the police can detain you as long as 10 days even if you did not do anything, and they will try as hell to make you admit you did it, and in any case your life is ruined since you will lose your job in the process. Hardly a good system to protect innocents from being convicted.
        lovemenot 9y ago
        ... and yet very few are actually convicted here, compared with almost any other developed country[1]. True, there's a lot of discretion in the Japanese prosecutorial system. Ditto USA. A big difference is that in Japan this discretion is mostly wielded judiciously. Crime rate is also extremely low in Japan. I don't have evidence that the legal system is the reason, but I believe it's a significant contributing factor. So where are all these righteously aggrieved innocents you worry about? They don't seem to show up in the stats. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... tldr: {jp:47, uk:163, us:693}
        ekianjo 9y ago
        You picked a particular bad timing to make your comment. It's all over the press in japan now: http://biz-journal.jp/2017/06/post_19335.html http://biz-journal.jp/2017/06/post_19335.html There are numerous cases of false allegations, and recently one guy who was being chased by the police despite claiming his innocence (and all his close friend and co-workers said that was not the kind of guy to do this) just fell to his death while trying to escape this situation.
        mcguire 9y ago
        "Japan's police see no evil" "Only 6.3% of the unnatural deaths in Aichi [prefecture] are investigated by a medical examiner, a minuscule rate even by nationwide standards in Japan, where an autopsy is performed in 11.2% of cases." http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9
  - tajen 9y ago
    The interrogation period is 23 days. The conviction rate after interrogation is 99.98%. It's not a made-up number: Only 15 people walked away free in 2015 after interrogation. Assuming that the police arrests the correct persons with 99.98% accuracy would be immensely harmful for democracy – Please lookup for testimonies if those 2 figures didn't already make you doubt about Japan's police system.
    - glandium 9y ago
      Do you have sources for that? http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_2_2_0.html#table_2_2_2_3 http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_2_2_0.html#tabl... has some data about the number of cases that are prosecuted and that's way lower than 99.98%, but that's not limited to people interrogated. But indeed, if you look at the data for cases that go to court, the conviction rate is high. http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html But that was my point in GP.
    - jpatokal 9y ago
      That's the conviction rate after going to trial. Prosecutors can and do drop charges if they don't think they have enough evidence to convict, and the police are also reluctant to record crimes they don't think they can solve.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      Couple a strangely high conviction rate with a weirdly low crime rate, and you have reason to think something is off about the country's justice system.
      - paulmd 9y ago
        I would assume that such figures studiously ignore criminal syndicates like the Yakuza. With apologies to Terry Pratchett: Japan's philosophy is that if you're going to have crime, at least it should be organized crime. My fiance did a high-school exchange in Japan and mentioned that people with tattoos weren't welcome at onsen because that usually means Yakuza in Japan, and businesses want to steer clear of all of that. If businesses are making rules like that, it's pretty clearly a non-trivial issue.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    Being certain they can nail you is not at all the same as being certain that you're guilty. For example, they can nail you by getting a confession out of you, regardless of whether you did it: > Finally, there is the prevalence of confessions. Ever notice how so many of Nick's clients have already confessed to crimes by the time he takes on their case? Known as "the king of evidence" by the Japanese system, confessions obtained in custody by prosecutors and police are the basis of the majority of convictions. Few rules govern what goes on in a Japanese interrogation room. Suspects are held for long periods before being charged or brought to trial, and the law offers them little protection. Critics argue that the system is open to abuse, and that false confessions are often extracted through coercion. > Take the case of Toshikazu Sugaya. He matched the profile and blood type of a child murderer, but the police lacked any evidence. "They barged in and told me to sit down," recalls Sugaya. "Then they kept saying, 'You killed that kid, didn't you?' I said 'No, no,' but they didn't believe me." After a 13 hour interrogation without food, water, or a lawyer, Sugaya confessed. Armed with this confession, the prosecution successfully convicted him and he was sentenced to life in prison. It would be nearly 18 years before modern DNA evidence would completely exonerate him. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/issues/issue_253/7530-Phoenix-Wright-s-Objection http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/is... That's right, Phoenix Wright is probably a form of social criticism disguised as a game.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  I live in Japan and this comment rings very true about the police and the way they operate.
InclinedPlane 9y ago
Yup. Same as wage theft or OSHA/fire code violations. Illegal but because of the power imbalance often nearly impossible to do anything about.
bildung 9y ago
Well, this is what unions are for. In the countries I know, union membership gets you legal costs insurance for work related cases (for exactly these power dynamics). And economies of scale usually mean that unions have pretty good employment law attorneys. Granted, I have no idea how it works in Japan.
- izacus 9y ago
  Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In a lot of these environments corporations like Konami have enough power to essentially make you unemployable. Not having a positive reference (or even having an unofficial black mark against you) from them can easily be end of your career in the field. Especially if you slandered (or, god forbid, sued!) your previous employer.
  - mattmanser 9y ago
    Strong unions could put an end to the untouchable concept completely.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      Strong unions comes with their own issues. Many unions turn into unlabelled mafia.
      - pulse7 9y ago
        ...or into a labelled one (Sicilian Mafia).
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Certainly it's possible, and yet I don't think there is much other way for employees to achieve any sort of political power over their employers. It's also probably worth mentioning, since we're talking about Japan, the extent to which the worlds of Japanese business and Japanese organized crime are intertwined.
      - 9y ago
emodendroket 9y ago
As I understand it these practices are not really even uncommon in Japanese companies.
kazinator 9y ago
I would put on my resume that "I worked with Namiko". Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could infer that this is a rearrangement of Konami. Moreover, you can say during an interview, and other private communication, that you worked at Konami, without having that appear on your public resume. There are easy ways to comply with Konami's demands, only not really.

visarga 9y ago

If the courts function like police in Japan, then there is no hope. If police arrests you it's 99% sure they will get a conviction. It's a matter of saving face for them to convict everyone they arrest. You are judged by the cop, then rubber stamp sentenced by the judge.

glandium 9y ago
Arguably, the flip side is that you're not prosecuted unless they're near certain they can nail you.
- mc32 9y ago
  I think that is of very little consolation for two reasons: 1. People don't get murdered, instead they die of "heart attacks," or they "accidentally fell down a stairwell" and the perp goes free. 2. They can keep you detained without representation for quite some time, in the meantime you are worn down physically and psychologically till you just want to make it "go away" so you sign a "confession" letter.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    You seem to be confusing Japan with the United States.
    - mc32 9y ago
      I'd suggest you read up about how the legal system works in Japan before you blurt out a facile quip: Confessions[1] and other unpleasantness[2]. [1]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/10/japan-forced-confessions-wrong-convictions-161010084400226.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/10/japan-forc... [2]https://gaijinass.com/2011/01/02/7-brutal-realities-regarding-arrest-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2011/01/02/7-brutal-realities-regardin...
      - nihonde 9y ago
        Dubious sources, to say the least. This dumb conversation pops up every single time the Japanese criminal justice system comes up, and no one has a decent source--say for example, something in Japanese. First of all, the conviction rate in the US is 85+% last time I checked. Secondly, Japanese suspects confess. The theory is that they're coerced, but that requires one to accept a lot of speculation about the psychological impact of prolonged interrogations. Finally, the police in Japan are essentially invisible, so you need to be suspicious to even be on their radar. If you attract that kind of attention, you don't belong here, and they're going to let you know. It may not be what you want to hear, but that's just how it works here. It's the same everywhere else. In America, you can drive a BMW with New York plates from New Orleans to Los Angeles, and if you get pulled over, good luck to you.
        stupidcar 9y ago
        Do you consider Amnesty International to be a decent source? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abusive-detention-system-after-murder-conviction-quashed/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2012/11/japan-end-abu...
        nihonde 9y ago
        In a word: no. Japan has a different attitude toward civil rights than the west. Can anyone point to source from within Japan?
  - namlem 9y ago
    They can keep you two weeks (as opposed to two days in the US) without filing charges. As long as you don't confess, they won't actually bring charges unless they have compelling evidence.
    - glandium 9y ago
      I think it's 48 hours in Japan too.
      - mc32 9y ago
        It's 23 days according to[1] which in an unheated (or conversely uncooled) cell along with "confess even if you didn't do it, it will make it easier" spiel can be hard to withstand. [1]http://japan.embassy.gov.au/tkyo/arrests.html http://japan.embassy.gov.au/tkyo/arrests.html
        joecool1029 9y ago
        Call me skeptical regarding being held without charge in Japan. I know of a certain infamous French national that was held for months without charge there. [1]. The loophole I guess was adding a second charge when the first 'grace period' expired. [1]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34217495 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34217495
        elmigranto 9y ago
        > held without charge > adding a second charge Okay.
        glandium 9y ago
        My bad, I misremembered, the base is actually 3 days (72 hours, that's the number I actually knew, but I mixed up with something else), and can be prolonged for 10 days by prosecution if a judge allows it, and can be prolonged for 10 more days after that, again validated by a judge. After that, the detainee needs to be either charged or released. Supposedly, the extensions are for cases where there is risk of destruction of evidence or disappearance. Wikipedia cites some (old, 1987) numbers that 85% of arrested detainees were kept for longer than 72 hours and more than a third were held without charge for longer than ten days. Interestingly enough (having now done some minimal research), for terrorism cases, you can be detained up to 28 (!) days without a charge in the UK. https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/comparative-law-study-2010-pre-charge-detention.pdf https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/...
  - petre 9y ago
    A judge can keep you jailed in the US indefinitely for contempt of the court. See the Martin Armstrong case.
    - mc32 9y ago
      Exceptions, exceptions. We're talking routine procedure in Japan --which I love btw., but you gotta face the reality of how the justice system works.
      - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
        In which case the routine in the US is to over charge them, hold them without bail (by ensuring bail is too high for them to be able to pay), and scare them into taking a plea deal. And isn't a plea deal a kind of confession?
        mc32 9y ago
        Yeah, I'm sorry mate, you're absolutely right. There is no problem in Japan as it regards civil rights. It's my mistake. Obviously these problems only exist in the US so, while we are specifically talking about judicial issues in Japan, it's beside the point because there are no issues here.
        BearGoesChirp 9y ago
        My point was that both systems are similar in coercing a plea deal, but do so through different means. They are also similar it outcomes when you count in plea deals and not just court cases that got to trail. This was to point out that the systems like have a common flaw creating a common problem. This was said in response to other comments, not as a top level comment. So, did you really interpret me as saying Japan didn't have a problem? Is there somewhere where I could clarify my stance (a bit too late to edit the post now, but for future reference)?
  - oelmekki 9y ago
    Which are traits you find just as is in a dictature. Do you have evidences supporting this claim?
    - ekianjo 9y ago
      If a woman says you touched her in the train, the police can detain you as long as 10 days even if you did not do anything, and they will try as hell to make you admit you did it, and in any case your life is ruined since you will lose your job in the process. Hardly a good system to protect innocents from being convicted.
      - lovemenot 9y ago
        ... and yet very few are actually convicted here, compared with almost any other developed country[1]. True, there's a lot of discretion in the Japanese prosecutorial system. Ditto USA. A big difference is that in Japan this discretion is mostly wielded judiciously. Crime rate is also extremely low in Japan. I don't have evidence that the legal system is the reason, but I believe it's a significant contributing factor. So where are all these righteously aggrieved innocents you worry about? They don't seem to show up in the stats. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... tldr: {jp:47, uk:163, us:693}
        ekianjo 9y ago
        You picked a particular bad timing to make your comment. It's all over the press in japan now: http://biz-journal.jp/2017/06/post_19335.html http://biz-journal.jp/2017/06/post_19335.html There are numerous cases of false allegations, and recently one guy who was being chased by the police despite claiming his innocence (and all his close friend and co-workers said that was not the kind of guy to do this) just fell to his death while trying to escape this situation.
        mcguire 9y ago
        "Japan's police see no evil" "Only 6.3% of the unnatural deaths in Aichi [prefecture] are investigated by a medical examiner, a minuscule rate even by nationwide standards in Japan, where an autopsy is performed in 11.2% of cases." http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9
- tajen 9y ago
  The interrogation period is 23 days. The conviction rate after interrogation is 99.98%. It's not a made-up number: Only 15 people walked away free in 2015 after interrogation. Assuming that the police arrests the correct persons with 99.98% accuracy would be immensely harmful for democracy – Please lookup for testimonies if those 2 figures didn't already make you doubt about Japan's police system.
  - glandium 9y ago
    Do you have sources for that? http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_2_2_0.html#table_2_2_2_3 http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_2_2_0.html#tabl... has some data about the number of cases that are prosecuted and that's way lower than 99.98%, but that's not limited to people interrogated. But indeed, if you look at the data for cases that go to court, the conviction rate is high. http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html http://hakusyo1.moj.go.jp/en/64/nfm/n_64_2_2_3_1_0.html But that was my point in GP.
  - jpatokal 9y ago
    That's the conviction rate after going to trial. Prosecutors can and do drop charges if they don't think they have enough evidence to convict, and the police are also reluctant to record crimes they don't think they can solve.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Couple a strangely high conviction rate with a weirdly low crime rate, and you have reason to think something is off about the country's justice system.
    - paulmd 9y ago
      I would assume that such figures studiously ignore criminal syndicates like the Yakuza. With apologies to Terry Pratchett: Japan's philosophy is that if you're going to have crime, at least it should be organized crime. My fiance did a high-school exchange in Japan and mentioned that people with tattoos weren't welcome at onsen because that usually means Yakuza in Japan, and businesses want to steer clear of all of that. If businesses are making rules like that, it's pretty clearly a non-trivial issue.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Being certain they can nail you is not at all the same as being certain that you're guilty. For example, they can nail you by getting a confession out of you, regardless of whether you did it: > Finally, there is the prevalence of confessions. Ever notice how so many of Nick's clients have already confessed to crimes by the time he takes on their case? Known as "the king of evidence" by the Japanese system, confessions obtained in custody by prosecutors and police are the basis of the majority of convictions. Few rules govern what goes on in a Japanese interrogation room. Suspects are held for long periods before being charged or brought to trial, and the law offers them little protection. Critics argue that the system is open to abuse, and that false confessions are often extracted through coercion. > Take the case of Toshikazu Sugaya. He matched the profile and blood type of a child murderer, but the police lacked any evidence. "They barged in and told me to sit down," recalls Sugaya. "Then they kept saying, 'You killed that kid, didn't you?' I said 'No, no,' but they didn't believe me." After a 13 hour interrogation without food, water, or a lawyer, Sugaya confessed. Armed with this confession, the prosecution successfully convicted him and he was sentenced to life in prison. It would be nearly 18 years before modern DNA evidence would completely exonerate him. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/issues/issue_253/7530-Phoenix-Wright-s-Objection http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/is... That's right, Phoenix Wright is probably a form of social criticism disguised as a game.
ekianjo 9y ago
I live in Japan and this comment rings very true about the police and the way they operate.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

Yup. Same as wage theft or OSHA/fire code violations. Illegal but because of the power imbalance often nearly impossible to do anything about.

bildung 9y ago

Well, this is what unions are for. In the countries I know, union membership gets you legal costs insurance for work related cases (for exactly these power dynamics). And economies of scale usually mean that unions have pretty good employment law attorneys. Granted, I have no idea how it works in Japan.

izacus 9y ago
Union can't force a company to rehire you when you're "untouchable". In a lot of these environments corporations like Konami have enough power to essentially make you unemployable. Not having a positive reference (or even having an unofficial black mark against you) from them can easily be end of your career in the field. Especially if you slandered (or, god forbid, sued!) your previous employer.
- mattmanser 9y ago
  Strong unions could put an end to the untouchable concept completely.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Strong unions comes with their own issues. Many unions turn into unlabelled mafia.
    - pulse7 9y ago
      ...or into a labelled one (Sicilian Mafia).
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Certainly it's possible, and yet I don't think there is much other way for employees to achieve any sort of political power over their employers. It's also probably worth mentioning, since we're talking about Japan, the extent to which the worlds of Japanese business and Japanese organized crime are intertwined.
    - 9y ago

emodendroket 9y ago

As I understand it these practices are not really even uncommon in Japanese companies.

kazinator 9y ago

I would put on my resume that "I worked with Namiko". Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could infer that this is a rearrangement of Konami. Moreover, you can say during an interview, and other private communication, that you worked at Konami, without having that appear on your public resume. There are easy ways to comply with Konami's demands, only not really.