5 ms·

That's a fair point, (and +1 for PlatformIO). And that is sort of the argument I sometimes find myself making: the Arduino Hardware is delightful. It's the ec

That's a fair point, (and +1 for PlatformIO). And that is sort of the argument I sometimes find myself making: the Arduino Hardware is delightful. It's the ecosystem that has emerged around hobbyists that is problematic. It may just be early teething pains of something that will become remarkable. But right now, we find ourselves spending a lot of time walking back bad habits and lack of understanding of fundamentals when students show up with "projects" that involve a "schematic" that is really just a photograph of a breadboard, and the introduction of complex parts without ever consulting a data sheet, based on random code just pulled down over the Internet. And I've seen commercial products that are at about the same level of quality. The problem may be that Arduino is too forgiving.

ajarmst 9y ago
I've made the argument that the Arduino is great for quick and dirty projects (a colleague builds stuff for Escape Rooms that only ever exist for a few months using them), and for trying out ideas when you already know what you're doing. They're less valuable as a tool for learning that stuff, if only because of the Wild West nature of the ecosystem.
- lutorm 9y ago
  Learning by experimentation is a perfectly valid way of learning. You can't force people to learn in depth but, if you want to, there's no problem gradually deepening your understanding over time by trying stuff and thinking about it.
dec0dedab0de 9y ago
The problem may be that Arduino is too forgiving. Isn't that the same argument for using xml over html?
- ajarmst 9y ago
  It's the same argument for putting Republicans instead of Democrats on the bench. Whether or not you find that argument compelling doesn't really affect whether you find another one similarly structured to be similarly so.
lucaspiller 9y ago
s/Arduino/Node.js/g It's exactly the same problem. These platforms make it really easy (too easy?) for people who don't really know what they are doing, to quickly build up something that is functional, but without then understand the underlying concepts. Grab this library, copy and paste from this tutorial, change a few lines and boom! You have a blog or IoT weather station.
- watwut 9y ago
  And that is bad because?
  - flukus 9y ago
    It's bad when people that don't really understand what they're doing release products, but I didn't know that was the case with Arduino. I've used it for learning/prototyping without ever having any intention of creating the final product with it (or at all really).
  - kbart 9y ago
    That's bad when have tons of connected buggy, unsecured devices powering botnets. Not that I blame hobbyist for that, but such mindset that "hardware is easy" should not prevail.
    - watwut 9y ago
      The thing is, if you wait till you know things to start learning, you will not learn at all. This is quite visible in programming - people who assume "it is complicated" or try to learn all basics before doing things have low changed of becoming programmers. Whether they came to that conclusion alone or someone gave them that advice, "don't do stuff until you know what you are doing" is bad advice for students. It also filter out precisely the people who tend to listen to advice. Meanwhile, people who confidently do crap despite not knowing anything, make mistakes in the process, but can eventually learn to become good.
      - 9y ago
StavrosK 9y ago
That hasn't been my experience. In fact, I spent months finding an appropriate MOSFET to drive some LEDs because the random ones I spent a month waiting for couldn't switch fast enough. That taught me right quick to read datasheets to make sure I get what I need. These days, however, I recommend the ESP8266, not so much the Arduino. You lose the shields' flexibility, which may put people off with the steeper learning curve, but you gain a lot in capability.

ajarmst 9y ago

I've made the argument that the Arduino is great for quick and dirty projects (a colleague builds stuff for Escape Rooms that only ever exist for a few months using them), and for trying out ideas when you already know what you're doing. They're less valuable as a tool for learning that stuff, if only because of the Wild West nature of the ecosystem.

lutorm 9y ago
Learning by experimentation is a perfectly valid way of learning. You can't force people to learn in depth but, if you want to, there's no problem gradually deepening your understanding over time by trying stuff and thinking about it.

dec0dedab0de 9y ago

The problem may be that Arduino is too forgiving. Isn't that the same argument for using xml over html?

ajarmst 9y ago
It's the same argument for putting Republicans instead of Democrats on the bench. Whether or not you find that argument compelling doesn't really affect whether you find another one similarly structured to be similarly so.

lucaspiller 9y ago

s/Arduino/Node.js/g It's exactly the same problem. These platforms make it really easy (too easy?) for people who don't really know what they are doing, to quickly build up something that is functional, but without then understand the underlying concepts. Grab this library, copy and paste from this tutorial, change a few lines and boom! You have a blog or IoT weather station.

watwut 9y ago
And that is bad because?
- flukus 9y ago
  It's bad when people that don't really understand what they're doing release products, but I didn't know that was the case with Arduino. I've used it for learning/prototyping without ever having any intention of creating the final product with it (or at all really).
- kbart 9y ago
  That's bad when have tons of connected buggy, unsecured devices powering botnets. Not that I blame hobbyist for that, but such mindset that "hardware is easy" should not prevail.
  - watwut 9y ago
    The thing is, if you wait till you know things to start learning, you will not learn at all. This is quite visible in programming - people who assume "it is complicated" or try to learn all basics before doing things have low changed of becoming programmers. Whether they came to that conclusion alone or someone gave them that advice, "don't do stuff until you know what you are doing" is bad advice for students. It also filter out precisely the people who tend to listen to advice. Meanwhile, people who confidently do crap despite not knowing anything, make mistakes in the process, but can eventually learn to become good.
    - 9y ago

StavrosK 9y ago

That hasn't been my experience. In fact, I spent months finding an appropriate MOSFET to drive some LEDs because the random ones I spent a month waiting for couldn't switch fast enough. That taught me right quick to read datasheets to make sure I get what I need. These days, however, I recommend the ESP8266, not so much the Arduino. You lose the shields' flexibility, which may put people off with the steeper learning curve, but you gain a lot in capability.