7 ms·

A Look Inside James Baldwin's 1,884 Page FBI File

80 points by samclemens 9y ago

thoughtcrim00 9y ago
James Baldwin, on the subject of black-on-white rape: [T]here is, I should think, no Negro living in America who . . . has not wanted to smash any white face he may encounter in a day, to violate, out of motives of the cruelest vengeance, their women, to break the bodies of all white people. . . . https://www.amren.com/commentary/2017/05/black-on-white-rape-anti-white-racism-crime/ https://www.amren.com/commentary/2017/05/black-on-white-rape...
- 1dundundun 9y ago
  If you were a thinking black or Native American in the USA, wouldn't you possibly feel the same hurt/ anger? He speaks for the voiceless. He wasn't advocating violence, nor was he a violent man himself, nor are his readers- artists, academics & such...
  - mark_edward 9y ago
    American Renaissance is a white nationalist publication, the person you are replying to has no interest in the truth.
    - 1dundundun 9y ago
      Thank you. That helps.
    - erikpukinskis 9y ago
      I think that's disingenuous. We are all caught up in political ideologies. We may be resisting and still desirous of truth. We might have both desire and fear, and fear might be winning. I think the practice of ad homineming your political enemies is harmful to anyone's political aims. It strengthens your hold over your base, but it makes it harder for you to grow the boundary beyond it.
      - mark_edward 9y ago
        Sorry, not concerned about convincing people who think I'm subhuman, or convinced they're at all open to convincing.
        erikpukinskis 9y ago
        White nationalists don't necessarily believe you are subhuman. And many white progressives do. Perhaps most. They just won't say it to your face. I don't think drawing the distinction where you are is actually cordoning off the thing you hope to cordon off.
        mark_edward 9y ago
        Of course not, they just believe this is a white christian nation and we should be packed off on a boat (again) and shipped somewhere I don't know and have never been. Or maybe we will be mysteriously """convinced""" to "self-deport".
        erikpukinskis 9y ago
        Many white liberals want exactly that, for the parts of you that they're afraid of. They believe in a fictional you who can stay.
  - jimmyk 9y ago
    >hurt/ anger I think the word you're looking for is "hatred".
    - HumbleGamer 9y ago
      hurt + anger = hatred
1dundundun 9y ago
Interesting post from the comments ... "The FBI did not investigate writers according to their literary merits. As Kurt Vonnegut's biographer, I can tell you that, despite his publishing Slaughterhouse-Five— one of the most popular anti-war novels of the 1960s— the FBI didn't keep a file on him. But the bureau did monitor the lives and works of Amiri Baraka, Lorraine Hansberry (a 1,000-page file), W.E.B. Du Bois, Ralph Ellison, Chester Himes, and Richard Wright, among others. What the bureau opposed was African American literature and its potential— a backhanded recognition of that genre's power to influence readers. No cultural upheaval would be coming from the likes of Roth, Updike, or Mary McCarthy, for reasons you no doubt understand."
- pjc50 9y ago
  Are people surprised that the FBI of the 50s was treating black intellectuals as some sort of alien internal enemy? It's not as if this has changed much. Compare the treatment of e.g. Black Lives Matter with white groups or individuals which are overtly pro-violence, e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/neo-nazi-brandon-russell-explosives-bombs-white-supremacy-timothy-mcveigh-threat-magistrate-judge-a7785236.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/neo-nazi-br...
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Are people surprised that the FBI of the 50s was treating black intellectuals as some sort of alien internal enemy? No, what's surprising is that some people think this was then, and things now are different.
    - M_Grey 9y ago
      A lot of that "thinking" is either wishful, or sculpted by people who need post-racial apathy to commit their very racially motivated crimes.
  - Crontab 9y ago
    This is the problem with allowing the government to have invasive surveillance powers - they use them not only to prevent legitimate threats but also to try to prevent the social changes that naturally should occur over time.
werber 9y ago
Granted this is a very narrow view into the files, but they seem awfully concerned about the gay stuff. Was gay propaganda really that big of a concern for the FBI back then?
- 1dundundun 9y ago
  FBI head Hoover was a closeted gay man. That probably played a part.
- pjc50 9y ago
  It was certainly something they could use against people. This wasn't so long after a previous massive witch-hunt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare (I can't parse "gay propaganda" without interpreting it as massively homophobic, care to elaborate?)
  - werber 9y ago
    I meant that with no negative connotation. James Baldwin is my favorite author, and his contributions to queer american life are something I truly treasure. Empowerment would have been a better choice of word than propaganda.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    I wish more people would understand this. The reason they are homophobic is because making a normal activity immoral gives them something they can use to defame people. Similarly, the reason they are racist because having a frightening other makes it easier to control the populace. You need a bad part of town to keep prices up in the good part. These underlying racist/classist/sexist/homophobic motives then reach around acausally and individuals think we are in a post-racist or post-sexist society, that black people commit crime, or that Jews run the world, or whatever. The system reinforces itself because it needs to in order to survive. Rational basis for both the -isms and the denial of their power forms out of nothing to serve the end goal of GDP growth and consolidation of wealth in the capital class. It also provides a cultural grounding for policing "good whites" and "bad whites". You can't use merit, because then the rewards are too predictable and people won't get addicted to them. When you ground badness in a neighbor culture, it means people who are part way between cultures (i.e. all of us) never really know exactly when the rewards are going to come, so they become addictive. Only people at the extremes know when the rewards are coming: rich whites (always), poor blacks (never). Both groups use that freedom from political addiction to control culture. Whites architecturally, blacks artistically. Wall Street and Hip Hop. That's also why you see black culture bifurcated with some moving "towards the bottom" and some "towards the top". There is a power source in both directions, in thug life and in assimilation. Of course this also provides free propaganda for racists... "look how they move towards badness"...
bradleyjg 9y ago
Although more like 20 pages than 1800 pages, my family recently use FOIA to obtain my grandfather's FBI file. It was apparently opened after someone at a party he attended overheard him speaking about the Rosenbergs and reported to the FBI that he "sounded like a communist". It turned out to be pretty interesting. If you have any family members that were involved with the anti-war movement or with the labor movement, you may want to file your own FOIA request. They were surprisingly responsive. Not within the statutory limits mind you, but less than a year.
- 6stringmerc 9y ago
  Glad to hear the spirit and effect of the FOIA gets put to use. Thanks for sharing the notion and encouragement that there's merit to giving it a try.
- zrth 9y ago
  Hi. Have a question regarding your comment. Can you provide a email or msg me at the email in my profile.
jpster 9y ago
But why did James Baldwin have reason to scrutinize the FBI's role during the civil rights movement? Some background: https://zinnedproject.org/2016/03/fbi-war-civil-rights-movement/ https://zinnedproject.org/2016/03/fbi-war-civil-rights-movem...
- panglott 9y ago
  A James Baldwin history of the FBI in the South sounds like an amazing book.

80 points by samclemens 9y ago

James Baldwin, on the subject of black-on-white rape: [T]here is, I should think, no Negro living in America who . . . has not wanted to smash any white face he may encounter in a day, to violate, out of motives of the cruelest vengeance, their women, to break the bodies of all white people. . . . https://www.amren.com/commentary/2017/05/black-on-white-rape-anti-white-racism-crime/ https://www.amren.com/commentary/2017/05/black-on-white-rape...

1dundundun 9y ago
If you were a thinking black or Native American in the USA, wouldn't you possibly feel the same hurt/ anger? He speaks for the voiceless. He wasn't advocating violence, nor was he a violent man himself, nor are his readers- artists, academics & such...
- mark_edward 9y ago
  American Renaissance is a white nationalist publication, the person you are replying to has no interest in the truth.
  - 1dundundun 9y ago
    Thank you. That helps.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    I think that's disingenuous. We are all caught up in political ideologies. We may be resisting and still desirous of truth. We might have both desire and fear, and fear might be winning. I think the practice of ad homineming your political enemies is harmful to anyone's political aims. It strengthens your hold over your base, but it makes it harder for you to grow the boundary beyond it.
    - mark_edward 9y ago
      Sorry, not concerned about convincing people who think I'm subhuman, or convinced they're at all open to convincing.
      - erikpukinskis 9y ago
        White nationalists don't necessarily believe you are subhuman. And many white progressives do. Perhaps most. They just won't say it to your face. I don't think drawing the distinction where you are is actually cordoning off the thing you hope to cordon off.
        mark_edward 9y ago
        Of course not, they just believe this is a white christian nation and we should be packed off on a boat (again) and shipped somewhere I don't know and have never been. Or maybe we will be mysteriously """convinced""" to "self-deport".
        erikpukinskis 9y ago
        Many white liberals want exactly that, for the parts of you that they're afraid of. They believe in a fictional you who can stay.
- jimmyk 9y ago
  >hurt/ anger I think the word you're looking for is "hatred".
  - HumbleGamer 9y ago
    hurt + anger = hatred

1dundundun 9y ago

Interesting post from the comments ... "The FBI did not investigate writers according to their literary merits. As Kurt Vonnegut's biographer, I can tell you that, despite his publishing Slaughterhouse-Five— one of the most popular anti-war novels of the 1960s— the FBI didn't keep a file on him. But the bureau did monitor the lives and works of Amiri Baraka, Lorraine Hansberry (a 1,000-page file), W.E.B. Du Bois, Ralph Ellison, Chester Himes, and Richard Wright, among others. What the bureau opposed was African American literature and its potential— a backhanded recognition of that genre's power to influence readers. No cultural upheaval would be coming from the likes of Roth, Updike, or Mary McCarthy, for reasons you no doubt understand."

pjc50 9y ago
Are people surprised that the FBI of the 50s was treating black intellectuals as some sort of alien internal enemy? It's not as if this has changed much. Compare the treatment of e.g. Black Lives Matter with white groups or individuals which are overtly pro-violence, e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/neo-nazi-brandon-russell-explosives-bombs-white-supremacy-timothy-mcveigh-threat-magistrate-judge-a7785236.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/neo-nazi-br...
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Are people surprised that the FBI of the 50s was treating black intellectuals as some sort of alien internal enemy? No, what's surprising is that some people think this was then, and things now are different.
  - M_Grey 9y ago
    A lot of that "thinking" is either wishful, or sculpted by people who need post-racial apathy to commit their very racially motivated crimes.
- Crontab 9y ago
  This is the problem with allowing the government to have invasive surveillance powers - they use them not only to prevent legitimate threats but also to try to prevent the social changes that naturally should occur over time.

werber 9y ago

Granted this is a very narrow view into the files, but they seem awfully concerned about the gay stuff. Was gay propaganda really that big of a concern for the FBI back then?

1dundundun 9y ago
FBI head Hoover was a closeted gay man. That probably played a part.
pjc50 9y ago
It was certainly something they could use against people. This wasn't so long after a previous massive witch-hunt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare (I can't parse "gay propaganda" without interpreting it as massively homophobic, care to elaborate?)
- werber 9y ago
  I meant that with no negative connotation. James Baldwin is my favorite author, and his contributions to queer american life are something I truly treasure. Empowerment would have been a better choice of word than propaganda.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  I wish more people would understand this. The reason they are homophobic is because making a normal activity immoral gives them something they can use to defame people. Similarly, the reason they are racist because having a frightening other makes it easier to control the populace. You need a bad part of town to keep prices up in the good part. These underlying racist/classist/sexist/homophobic motives then reach around acausally and individuals think we are in a post-racist or post-sexist society, that black people commit crime, or that Jews run the world, or whatever. The system reinforces itself because it needs to in order to survive. Rational basis for both the -isms and the denial of their power forms out of nothing to serve the end goal of GDP growth and consolidation of wealth in the capital class. It also provides a cultural grounding for policing "good whites" and "bad whites". You can't use merit, because then the rewards are too predictable and people won't get addicted to them. When you ground badness in a neighbor culture, it means people who are part way between cultures (i.e. all of us) never really know exactly when the rewards are going to come, so they become addictive. Only people at the extremes know when the rewards are coming: rich whites (always), poor blacks (never). Both groups use that freedom from political addiction to control culture. Whites architecturally, blacks artistically. Wall Street and Hip Hop. That's also why you see black culture bifurcated with some moving "towards the bottom" and some "towards the top". There is a power source in both directions, in thug life and in assimilation. Of course this also provides free propaganda for racists... "look how they move towards badness"...

bradleyjg 9y ago

Although more like 20 pages than 1800 pages, my family recently use FOIA to obtain my grandfather's FBI file. It was apparently opened after someone at a party he attended overheard him speaking about the Rosenbergs and reported to the FBI that he "sounded like a communist". It turned out to be pretty interesting. If you have any family members that were involved with the anti-war movement or with the labor movement, you may want to file your own FOIA request. They were surprisingly responsive. Not within the statutory limits mind you, but less than a year.

6stringmerc 9y ago
Glad to hear the spirit and effect of the FOIA gets put to use. Thanks for sharing the notion and encouragement that there's merit to giving it a try.
zrth 9y ago
Hi. Have a question regarding your comment. Can you provide a email or msg me at the email in my profile.

jpster 9y ago

But why did James Baldwin have reason to scrutinize the FBI's role during the civil rights movement? Some background: https://zinnedproject.org/2016/03/fbi-war-civil-rights-movement/ https://zinnedproject.org/2016/03/fbi-war-civil-rights-movem...

panglott 9y ago
A James Baldwin history of the FBI in the South sounds like an amazing book.