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BAE sold cyber-surveillance tools to Arab states
- chronic940 9y agoAre companies not allowed to sell their products and services? Sorry this doesn't sit well with your ideal world.
- averagewall 9y agoIn other news: West funds oppressive Arab states. Really, if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money. Funding terrorists is illegal, why is funding oppressive governments OK and then it's suddenly not OK when they spend that money to oppress people?
- czechdeveloper 9y agoLet's not fool ourselves. We need that oil to keep business as usual going. Gigatons of liquid energy that fuels most of our civilization.
- dvhh 9y agoLet's not forget the material for our modern age : plastic
- ljf 9y agoDon't forget Fertiliser - comes from gas not oil - but we'd be screwed without it: http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-supply-nitrogen-fertilizer/ http://grist.org/article/2010-02-11-tracking-u-s-farmers-sup...
- redahs 9y agoImporting goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin.
- gm-conspiracy 9y agoSo, democracies are exempt from human rights abuses? Would you support a tariff on IP exports (music, movies, tv shows)?
- bogomipz 9y ago>"Importing goods from non-democratic countries is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The externality created by giving non-democratic countries cash issued by democracies can be partially corrected by assessing a unilateral scaling tariff on imports, in proportion to the level of human rights abuses created by the country of origin." So lets apply that to Chinese imports. Let say that the US places one of the highest tariffs on Chinese imports since its one of the least democratic countries[1]. So China's economy grinds to a halt. But China is one of the largest purchasers of U.S debt so now both China and the U.S economies completely tank[2]. And then that has knock on effect on Africa where China is buying up minerals and investing in infrastructure projects. This would effectively tank the economies of North America, Asia and Africa. Does this still strike you as a viable idea? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index [2] https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-i...
- ZeroGravitas 9y agoOr China becomes more democratic and implements better worker safety and environmental regulations.
- pm90 9y agoHow do you propose that will happen exactly? Democracy is usually born out of stability, not revolution. Honestly, I hope China goes the way of Korea and slowly transitions into a more democratic country, but that is hardly a given. And revolutions in China have a nasty history of leaving millions of people dead/displaced and plunging the country into chaos. edit: after writing this comment, I'm not comfortable with my assertion. Democracy in England was established (or reinforced) after the English Civil War and Glorious Revolutions, democracy in the US after the Revolutionary war and in France after the French Revolution.... so I take that assertion back.
- DenisM 9y agoUS is self-sufficient in terms of oil production / consumption.
- ljf 9y agoIs it? This (from 2015) suggests this won't happen until 2030 https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states-likely-self-sufficient-oil-2030s/ https://www.oilandgas360.com/bp-energy-outlook-united-states... Also: http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-crude-oil http://crudeoilpeak.info/the-myth-of-us-self-sufficiency-in-... Would be interested in some numbers that show otherwise.
- DenisM 9y agoYou are right, I misinterpreted various news. Thanks for pointing this out.
- redahs 9y ago> if we didn't want them spying on people, we shouldn't be giving them all that oil money Yes, but if we did something reasonable such as enact scaling import tariffs on exports from non-free countries in proportion to their level of human rights abuses as measured by a legislative scorecard of objectively observable public criteria, the neoliberals would claim that they learned tariffs were bad in Econ 101 and therefore that domestic tax policy on importers must be set by the WTO.
- bogomipz 9y agoSo anyone that drives a car, buys anything that contains plastic, uses fertilizer, crayons or detergent is a "sponsor of terrorism" and an "oppressor"? That's absurd.
- tonyedgecombe 9y agoYet oil revenues are used to fund conflict.
- idlemind 9y agoThis is more of the same inglorious British Government tradition of being willing to sell anything to anyone, provided they've got the cash.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- 3131s 9y agoHere's some similarly inglorious work from another British company, contracted by none other than the US government: http://www.salon.com/2016/10/03/u-s-paid-p-r-firm-540-million-to-make-fake-al-qaida-videos-in-iraq-propaganda-program/ http://www.salon.com/2016/10/03/u-s-paid-p-r-firm-540-millio...
- MaaQ 9y agoAs far as I am informed the British Government adviced agains th sale, however the danish government approved it.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- vyper91 9y ago"While the sales are legal, human rights campaigners and cyber-security experts have expressed serious concerns these powerful tools could be used to spy on millions of people and thwart any signs of dissent." Whilst true, why does this point seem to matter for other countries governments than our own?
- plafl 9y agoThe spying is equally evil, the consequences are different
- Already__Taken 9y agoUltimately is the motive that countries have even to improve the state of other countries? I mean, it should be. Less places that have a chance to becoming a democratic capitalist utopia is a win for the old guard like the west right? We seem to have done well with it.
- LordKano 9y agoBy no means am I excusing the excesses of my government or its western allies, though I would like to point out that we won't execute someone for blasphemy like some of those other nations. I say we put out the big fire first.
- RichardHeart 9y agoIt sucks when nationstates have real security they work that the citizens want done, but are also relatively evil. You have to guess whether they'll be doing more evil or more real useful law enforcement. We only hear about the evil.
- icebraining 9y agoYou don't have to guess. You could just refuse to collaborate with any of it until the level of evil is reduced.
- redahs 9y agoWestern democracies should impose a domestic procurement ban on companies which sell to foreign governments without civilian control over their militaries. This would not require new export controls or restrictions on international trade, only voluntary divestment when awarding domestic procurement contracts on the public's behalf. Problem solved.
- pmorici 9y agoThey would just do some wizardry to avoid the consequences like making a parent company with two subsidiaries that licensees the IP to the individual operating companies one for the domestic market and one or the undesirables.
- redahs 9y agoYes, but requiring socially undesirable accounts to be compartmentalized and spun-off may allow democracies to start removing the currently blatant conflicts of interest surrounding procurement and lobbying. A longer term solution would most likely require imposing a scaling import tariff on non-democratic countries in proportion to their level of human rights abuses. This would establish a rule where their ability to acquire democratic foreign currencies redeemable for weapon systems automatically decreases on the margin if they they pursue authoritarian policies, and automatically increases on the margin if they pursue reforms.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- mrweasel 9y agoThe Danish media is less gentle with their wording. The customers aren't talked about as "repressive governments" but is straight up called dictatorships.
- xtreme 9y agoIs dictatorship a necessary condition for oppressive governments? Democratically elected governments can be oppressive as well.
- sschueller 9y agoIf your big enough and have enough money you can do anything. Legal or not.
- pcunite 9y agomoral or not, legal is a formality.
- dublinclontarf 9y agoNot just BAE. Facebook only a few months ago began helping Pakistan "fight blasphemy", sending a team to the country. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39300270 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39300270 Only for a man to be sentenced to death for committing blasphemy on Facebook a little while later. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40246754 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40246754 Facebook say they are not responsible for this but it's obvious they have blood on their hands.
- cjrp 9y agoPlenty more here too https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-uk-companies-exporting-interception-tech-around-the-world https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-uk-companies-.... IMSI catchers exported to Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.
- smokeyj 9y agoIf this is real then wow.. do Facebook employees know this is happening? Or are they just okay working for a company like that? If you work for Zuck I'd love to hear your take on this.
- erikb 9y agoBtw. are you a US citizen? Do you feel personally responsible for what your fellow citizens did there? Have you already packed your stuff and moved to Brazil? I'm totally aware that asking these questions there is a chance >0 that you are actually not American and/or already living in another country. Let's just agree that you can still follow the intended purpose: People in a huge group don't really feel responsible for what other people on the other end of the world do unethically for the same group.
- geodel 9y agoI agree. I wonder if people who work or looking to work for companies which make ad/surveillance software and get huge salaries are always different than people who rail against these companies. Or is it just different mode of same people?
- ljf 9y agoIf you have time, watch Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gyz6b (also available on youtube if you are outside the UK - though seems mildly edited) Shows the tangled complicity in each others affairs that exists between UK, US and the Arab countries, and some of the background behind them and the leverage that we have over each over.
- bae_sian 9y agoIsn't this to read as "Arab states acquire systems to use against their citizens"? Or maybe "Arab states recruit collaborators, such as BAE, for assistance in subjugating residents"? If BAE sells these things, are we to interpret that BAE seduces countries into behaving as peeping toms, and assume yours too, if they do any business in your country? How does one do anything about BAE Systems?
- pcunite 9y agoAll of you programmers working on "cool" technology understand that this is going to be turned against your own children? Doesn't matter, does it? We all had a good time! Its really amazing to watch iron chains form from digital crystals. Did we learn nothing about history while our young people studied algorithms? Did taking "Computer Science" classes seclude us from the reality of how all of this would be used? We should feel some shame and remorse. If you're in this industry, start telling us here everyday what you've done so that some can have a chance to deal with the coming digital dictatorship. It will be worldwide, it will be unjust, and people will not be able to run away from it because it will cross borders. They lied to you when they told you they "needed" it for safety reasons, or for the children, or other soundless reasons to deceive you into building invisible prisons.
- M_Grey 9y ago>Did we learn nothing about history while our young people studied algorithms? Did taking "Computer Science" classes seclude us from the reality of how all of this would be used? Obviously the answer to your questions is, "Enough people don't learn those lessons, don't believe it will apply to them, or simply don't care." The time for analysis and hand-wringing was years ago, now it's just a pump-and-dump scheme at every level. The fools just think they have a place to run to, and that's the big flaw in the plan.
- 3pt14159 9y agoRather than just whine about lax security practices, here is an nginx config file that will get you a pretty high score on scanners like Mozilla's Observatory. https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/89d40b3214160ce9d59a2b913645a012 https://gist.github.com/zachaysan/89d40b3214160ce9d59a2b9136... If you work on things that involve sexuality, health, or finance and you don't enable these types of protections you're risking lives or financial ruin. Also if you see a shortcoming please let me know, I created this in a bit of a rush and I'm always happy to learn more.
- pc86 9y agoSeems odd that something designed to protect lives or prevent financial ruin you'd do "in a bit of a rush."
- 3pt14159 9y agoMy schedule is packed and it's better to share something than nothing, no? The point is to show how little is needed to protect against the type of encryption thwarting tools these guys likely employ, and to give people a starting point from which they can learn more from.
- equalunique 9y ago2014 while working in US federal info sec, one of my coworkers had a boyfriend employed by BAE working on surveillance software. I was surprised to learn that BAE produced such software. She explained to me that while certain laws prohibited US citizens from spying on each other, foriegn countries are exempt from those laws, so it is apparently common for surveillance software developed in the US to be deployed targeting the US by US allies who work with the US government.
- paulmd 9y agoYup, while it's technically illegal for the NSA/etc to deliberately intercept American communication, it's an open secret that they work in cooperation with other nations who spy on us and give the data back to the US via programs like ECHELON. They also bend the rules as much as legally permissable. They can't deliberately intercept domestic-only traffic, but anything that goes overseas is fair game for a bulk tap, and you don't really have control of how your packets are routed.
- retox 9y ago"within the regulatory framework" aka against the people