6 ms·

Can you ever use acid correctly? My understanding is the result is non-deterministic every trip for the same individual.

glibgil 9y ago
A bad trip is probably an overdose in the context of this conversation
pmoriarty 9y ago
You can do things to increase the odds that you'll have a constructive experience. The basics, it is widely agreed, are what are known as "set" and "setting". That is, what your mindset (or mind state, or where you are emotionally, what your expectations are, etc) and where you are physically and who and what are around you. Try to make those positive, supportive, friendly, stress-free, and comfortable. It's also important to have an experienced, trusted sitter or guide, and it helps to have a constructive intention for the trip, to be in a safe, supportive environment, not to have any commitments about what you have to do or where you have to be that day (and perhaps the next as well, for recovery). It might help to have some personally meaningful items with you to review during the trip. Things like photographs of loved ones, or other things that remind you of important people or things in your life. It can help to have a good mix of music to listen to. When all of these things, and perhaps some others not mentioned here, are in alignment, it's more likely that you'll have a constructive trip. But there are never any guarantees (with this or anything else in life, but especially in regards to what is likely to be a very emotionally powerful experience where you might be confronted with all sorts of things that could change your perspective or set you face-to-face with maybe something you weren't ready to face).
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  By the way, two good books that go in to much more detail on what makes for a good trip are: The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide[1] and The Secret Chief Revealed[2]. The latter was written by a therapist who conducted hundreds of therapy sessions with MDMA. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeutic-Journeys/dp/1594774021/ https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeut... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff/dp/0966001966/ https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff...
wavefunction 9y ago
In my opinion, some people are not good candidates for psychedelic use. This is primarily people who have control issues about 'letting go' but also people who have issues with reality and contrary ideation. But I think if there wasn't the stigma legal or otherwise, the use of these substances would be much safer. An experienced guide like a sitter or a shaman can guide people through rough experiences and encourage the uplifting ones.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  Yes, but it's hard to say a priori who these might be, and if they'll always remain poor candidates for psychedelic use. A lot depends on the context that psychedelics are used in, and who is helping out during the experience, what stage of their life these people are in, and even what mood they're in or what's happened to them recently and how they view that. There's a very interesting story about Nancy, an incommunicative, self-destructive, schizophrenic, dying eleven-year-old girl who was administered a high dose of LSD in the 60's.[1][2][3] You'd think she might not be the best candidate for a strong psychedelic experience. But it reportedly saved her life, and helped restore her to sanity. There have been many other cases of psychedelics being used to treat mentally ill people, with impressive results. Some people do react negatively, but in those cases I really wonder which drug(s) they took, what the dosage was, what their mindset was, what environment they took it in, who they took it with, what they did during the trip, and what intention they had. I would be willing to bet that in most cases many of these factors were far from ideal, and if they'd used them more constructively they would have probably had a better experience. I do believe it's possible to abuse these drugs, mostly by not taking them seriously enough and not treating them with enough respect, taking them only to "party" or even with destructive intent. And, yes, maybe some people just won't be able to handle psychedelics no matter what. Maybe. [1] - https://bpaste.net/raw/c86b011161ca https://bpaste.net/raw/c86b011161ca [2] - http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html [3] - https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0791482960 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0791482960
  - thelittleone 9y ago
    Another interesting example is the treatment of PTSD and heroin addiction through ayahuasca or ibogaine ceremonies. http://reset.me/personal-story/personal-story-ayahuasca-addiction-awakening/ http://reset.me/personal-story/personal-story-ayahuasca-addi... http://www.maps.org/research/ayahuasca/ http://www.maps.org/research/ayahuasca/
problems 9y ago
In large part that amounts to a combination of dosage and mental set. Alcohol even presents similar issues. If you're in a bad mood, drinking can make you angry and violent. If you're in a good mood it can make you relax. There's definitely a more amplified effect in the case of acid, but it's the same principle.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  The thing is, with acid it's much, much more complicated. You could start off in a great mood, but the trip could turn in to a nightmare. You could start in a horrible mood, and the trip could be wonderful. As Humphry Osmond famously said, "To fathom Hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic." The problem is, you don't know which you'll be doing in a given trip, and it's not uncommon to do both in the same trip, even bouncing from one to the other many times. There are many, many factors that play in to this, some of which are mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - problems 9y ago
    So you're suggesting that it's purely random and that your faculties do not play into it at all or at least in any significant way?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      It could be chaotic-but-deterministic, rather than random, and the above description could still be accurate.
    - pavement 9y ago
      Put it this way. Over the course of 12 hours, how many times does your mood change? Before your first cup of coffee, after a long day at work, getting stuck in traffic, going for a bike ride, feeling the embrace of your significant other. Seeing them flirt with your best friend, and your best friend flirting back. Now, take any 4 weekends from the past six months and compare them, what was on your mind for each Saturday and Sunday? Count the things you might think about in a span of time for any day off. Now, imagine that thrown into the middle of that, your friend shows you, in the palm of their hand, two tabs of acid. Add psychedelic state to all your shifts in mood, stream of consciousness and common distractions, and dredge up the baggage of memories reaching back into your childhood, and include existential questions about what it means to exist.
blacksmith_tb 9y ago
There's clearly a lot of interest in microdosing[1] it, presumably that counts? 1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39516345 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39516345
kevinmchugh 9y ago
There's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity. The resulting effect is apparently not very comparable to tripping. I don't know if it's possible or practiced with other psychedelics.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  Quite a few people microdose with marijuana. But it's possible to microdose with anything, really.
  - scarmig 9y ago
    Psychedelic homeopathy!
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      It's not really homeopathy if you're administering an actual substance, especially if it causes measurable changes in behavior or brain activity.
    - cjak 9y ago
      I'd suggest this is already occurring, given the uncertain purity and dosages associated with the supply of recreational drugs. Probably a fair amount of placebo-effect too!
      - Joof 9y ago
        Don't discount the power of the placebo effect. Psychedelics could easily be the most powerful placebo one might take.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  There's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity. This was also a "new trend" in the early 90's.
erikpukinskis 9y ago
The MDMA trials MAPS is organizing involve you sitting down with a licensed therapist before and after use, with a standard protocol that everyone follows, and carefully measuring outcomes. If it's unsafe in some cases that will come out in clinical trials just like with any drug.
- noahdesu 9y ago
  I recall a story about how when MAPS was going through the initial process of starting trials, they were permitted to introduce evidence of the safety from times when it was illegal, which also provided a bit of long term results. More recently when asked about the safety, MAPS states that the dosages and frequency being used are below what is known to cause problems. Now they are entering phase 3, which will be large scale.
openfuture 9y ago
It's not non-deterministic but as the dose grows the effect gets stronger. Since the effect is mind altering you can maybe understand how a _very_ altered mind is too different from your normal state for you to remember what it was like being high. Also a mind-state is affected by context and the context never stays the same, which means there will be some variance. However I'd argue that the question "can you use <psychadelic> correctly?" makes no sense since the word 'correctly' implies a frame of reference while the psychadelic will force you out of any such frame (depending on dose). Historically there were complex rituals for "correct" psychadelic use, all heavily religious of course. Our society is not willing to let something like that into the mainstream. Edit: Sometimes "correct" usage of a drug is to not ingest it, for example cyanide :)
- collyw 9y ago
  I think cyanide is classed as a poison rather than a drug.
Finnucane 9y ago
This is why there is a need for properly managed and funded clinical studies. So that these questions can actually be answered in a therapeutic context.
anythingnonidin 9y ago
I feel compelled to comment, as the comments below are lacking data. Short answer: Yes, psychedelics including acid can be used correctly. Psilocybin (the active ingredient in magic mushrooms) has a very similar, albeit a few hours shorter, effect to acid, and it is currently in FDA Phase 2 trials for emotional distress related to cancer, and is likely to soon progress to FDA Phase 3 trials. Some anxiety will occur in some patients, but true "bad trips" where the experience is overall negative seem highly avoidable with the correct procedure. https://tripsafe.org/acid/#5-bad-trips-do-happen-though-possibly-not-as-often-as-you-d-think https://tripsafe.org/acid/#5-bad-trips-do-happen-though-poss... > A 1955 paper found that anxiety occured in 9% more people who took 25-75 micrograms of LSD, and 14% more people who took 100-225 micrograms of LSD, compared with the placebo group.2 https://tripsafe.org/lsd/#what-is-the-probability-of-having-a-bad-trip-on-lsd https://tripsafe.org/lsd/#what-is-the-probability-of-having-... > At a dosage of 67 micrograms17 in a therapeutic clinical environment, we might expect 0% of people to experience some extreme fear,18 for an LSD-adjusted average of around ~2 minutes of strong anxiety19, and we might expect around ~45% to report a persisting positive increase in mood from this dosage assuming they had first tried 35 micrograms, then 67 The last point is particularly good. An expected average of 2 minutes of strong anxiety. With highly compelling therapeutic upsides.
didibus 9y ago
I don't think correctly means in a way that you'll enjoy. Isn't it more about the fact that you could use it correctly in the sense that it will have time limited effects which will not render you a danger to society or yourself. Have no idea about the effects of acid, but if a bad trip is had, but the effects subdue completely and during the trip you're not self harming or harming others, I'd say that qualifies as correctly no?
metaphorm 9y ago
yes, you can. a psychedelic trip will be different every time but you can very definitely control your mindset and physical setting to make sure your experience is safe and you are free to explore whatever experience comes to you on your own terms.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
Trips don't fit neatly into a good/bad dichotomy. There are certainly cases where people get very overwhelmed and simply aren't prepared for the experience, but even in those cases, many take something valuable away from it. Sometimes things get worse before they get better. I'm not saying that all trips are 'actually good' or some such. But it's not like you're rolling the dice; pretty much every 'bad' experience can be attributed to doing too much and/or doing it in a bad setting or with a poor mindset. And even in those cases, some basic prep to learn to not resist the trip, to just go with it, can make recovery quite achievable. Basically, some of the more 'difficult' trips can also be among the most valuable. To use acid 'correctly' (I disagree with this idea), you simply have to be prepared for whatever comes your way. You may confront some personal demons, but if you're ready to face that, then the benefits from doing so are enormous.

glibgil 9y ago

A bad trip is probably an overdose in the context of this conversation

pmoriarty 9y ago

You can do things to increase the odds that you'll have a constructive experience. The basics, it is widely agreed, are what are known as "set" and "setting". That is, what your mindset (or mind state, or where you are emotionally, what your expectations are, etc) and where you are physically and who and what are around you. Try to make those positive, supportive, friendly, stress-free, and comfortable. It's also important to have an experienced, trusted sitter or guide, and it helps to have a constructive intention for the trip, to be in a safe, supportive environment, not to have any commitments about what you have to do or where you have to be that day (and perhaps the next as well, for recovery). It might help to have some personally meaningful items with you to review during the trip. Things like photographs of loved ones, or other things that remind you of important people or things in your life. It can help to have a good mix of music to listen to. When all of these things, and perhaps some others not mentioned here, are in alignment, it's more likely that you'll have a constructive trip. But there are never any guarantees (with this or anything else in life, but especially in regards to what is likely to be a very emotionally powerful experience where you might be confronted with all sorts of things that could change your perspective or set you face-to-face with maybe something you weren't ready to face).

pmoriarty 9y ago
By the way, two good books that go in to much more detail on what makes for a good trip are: The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide[1] and The Secret Chief Revealed[2]. The latter was written by a therapist who conducted hundreds of therapy sessions with MDMA. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeutic-Journeys/dp/1594774021/ https://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Explorers-Guide-Therapeut... [2] - https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff/dp/0966001966/ https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Chief-Revealed-Myron-Stolaroff...

wavefunction 9y ago

In my opinion, some people are not good candidates for psychedelic use. This is primarily people who have control issues about 'letting go' but also people who have issues with reality and contrary ideation. But I think if there wasn't the stigma legal or otherwise, the use of these substances would be much safer. An experienced guide like a sitter or a shaman can guide people through rough experiences and encourage the uplifting ones.

pmoriarty 9y ago
Yes, but it's hard to say a priori who these might be, and if they'll always remain poor candidates for psychedelic use. A lot depends on the context that psychedelics are used in, and who is helping out during the experience, what stage of their life these people are in, and even what mood they're in or what's happened to them recently and how they view that. There's a very interesting story about Nancy, an incommunicative, self-destructive, schizophrenic, dying eleven-year-old girl who was administered a high dose of LSD in the 60's.[1][2][3] You'd think she might not be the best candidate for a strong psychedelic experience. But it reportedly saved her life, and helped restore her to sanity. There have been many other cases of psychedelics being used to treat mentally ill people, with impressive results. Some people do react negatively, but in those cases I really wonder which drug(s) they took, what the dosage was, what their mindset was, what environment they took it in, who they took it with, what they did during the trip, and what intention they had. I would be willing to bet that in most cases many of these factors were far from ideal, and if they'd used them more constructively they would have probably had a better experience. I do believe it's possible to abuse these drugs, mostly by not taking them seriously enough and not treating them with enough respect, taking them only to "party" or even with destructive intent. And, yes, maybe some people just won't be able to handle psychedelics no matter what. Maybe. [1] - https://bpaste.net/raw/c86b011161ca https://bpaste.net/raw/c86b011161ca [2] - http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html [3] - https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0791482960 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0791482960
- thelittleone 9y ago
  Another interesting example is the treatment of PTSD and heroin addiction through ayahuasca or ibogaine ceremonies. http://reset.me/personal-story/personal-story-ayahuasca-addiction-awakening/ http://reset.me/personal-story/personal-story-ayahuasca-addi... http://www.maps.org/research/ayahuasca/ http://www.maps.org/research/ayahuasca/

problems 9y ago

In large part that amounts to a combination of dosage and mental set. Alcohol even presents similar issues. If you're in a bad mood, drinking can make you angry and violent. If you're in a good mood it can make you relax. There's definitely a more amplified effect in the case of acid, but it's the same principle.

pmoriarty 9y ago
The thing is, with acid it's much, much more complicated. You could start off in a great mood, but the trip could turn in to a nightmare. You could start in a horrible mood, and the trip could be wonderful. As Humphry Osmond famously said, "To fathom Hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic." The problem is, you don't know which you'll be doing in a given trip, and it's not uncommon to do both in the same trip, even bouncing from one to the other many times. There are many, many factors that play in to this, some of which are mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- problems 9y ago
  So you're suggesting that it's purely random and that your faculties do not play into it at all or at least in any significant way?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    It could be chaotic-but-deterministic, rather than random, and the above description could still be accurate.
  - pavement 9y ago
    Put it this way. Over the course of 12 hours, how many times does your mood change? Before your first cup of coffee, after a long day at work, getting stuck in traffic, going for a bike ride, feeling the embrace of your significant other. Seeing them flirt with your best friend, and your best friend flirting back. Now, take any 4 weekends from the past six months and compare them, what was on your mind for each Saturday and Sunday? Count the things you might think about in a span of time for any day off. Now, imagine that thrown into the middle of that, your friend shows you, in the palm of their hand, two tabs of acid. Add psychedelic state to all your shifts in mood, stream of consciousness and common distractions, and dredge up the baggage of memories reaching back into your childhood, and include existential questions about what it means to exist.

blacksmith_tb 9y ago

There's clearly a lot of interest in microdosing[1] it, presumably that counts? 1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39516345 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39516345

kevinmchugh 9y ago

There's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity. The resulting effect is apparently not very comparable to tripping. I don't know if it's possible or practiced with other psychedelics.

pmoriarty 9y ago
Quite a few people microdose with marijuana. But it's possible to microdose with anything, really.
- scarmig 9y ago
  Psychedelic homeopathy!
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    It's not really homeopathy if you're administering an actual substance, especially if it causes measurable changes in behavior or brain activity.
  - cjak 9y ago
    I'd suggest this is already occurring, given the uncertain purity and dosages associated with the supply of recreational drugs. Probably a fair amount of placebo-effect too!
    - Joof 9y ago
      Don't discount the power of the placebo effect. Psychedelics could easily be the most powerful placebo one might take.
stcredzero 9y ago
There's a new trend called "microdosing" where acid is used in much smaller amounts than typical to improve mood and productivity. This was also a "new trend" in the early 90's.

erikpukinskis 9y ago

The MDMA trials MAPS is organizing involve you sitting down with a licensed therapist before and after use, with a standard protocol that everyone follows, and carefully measuring outcomes. If it's unsafe in some cases that will come out in clinical trials just like with any drug.

noahdesu 9y ago
I recall a story about how when MAPS was going through the initial process of starting trials, they were permitted to introduce evidence of the safety from times when it was illegal, which also provided a bit of long term results. More recently when asked about the safety, MAPS states that the dosages and frequency being used are below what is known to cause problems. Now they are entering phase 3, which will be large scale.

openfuture 9y ago

It's not non-deterministic but as the dose grows the effect gets stronger. Since the effect is mind altering you can maybe understand how a _very_ altered mind is too different from your normal state for you to remember what it was like being high. Also a mind-state is affected by context and the context never stays the same, which means there will be some variance. However I'd argue that the question "can you use <psychadelic> correctly?" makes no sense since the word 'correctly' implies a frame of reference while the psychadelic will force you out of any such frame (depending on dose). Historically there were complex rituals for "correct" psychadelic use, all heavily religious of course. Our society is not willing to let something like that into the mainstream. Edit: Sometimes "correct" usage of a drug is to not ingest it, for example cyanide :)

collyw 9y ago
I think cyanide is classed as a poison rather than a drug.

Finnucane 9y ago

This is why there is a need for properly managed and funded clinical studies. So that these questions can actually be answered in a therapeutic context.

anythingnonidin 9y ago

I feel compelled to comment, as the comments below are lacking data. Short answer: Yes, psychedelics including acid can be used correctly. Psilocybin (the active ingredient in magic mushrooms) has a very similar, albeit a few hours shorter, effect to acid, and it is currently in FDA Phase 2 trials for emotional distress related to cancer, and is likely to soon progress to FDA Phase 3 trials. Some anxiety will occur in some patients, but true "bad trips" where the experience is overall negative seem highly avoidable with the correct procedure. https://tripsafe.org/acid/#5-bad-trips-do-happen-though-possibly-not-as-often-as-you-d-think https://tripsafe.org/acid/#5-bad-trips-do-happen-though-poss... > A 1955 paper found that anxiety occured in 9% more people who took 25-75 micrograms of LSD, and 14% more people who took 100-225 micrograms of LSD, compared with the placebo group.2 https://tripsafe.org/lsd/#what-is-the-probability-of-having-a-bad-trip-on-lsd https://tripsafe.org/lsd/#what-is-the-probability-of-having-... > At a dosage of 67 micrograms17 in a therapeutic clinical environment, we might expect 0% of people to experience some extreme fear,18 for an LSD-adjusted average of around ~2 minutes of strong anxiety19, and we might expect around ~45% to report a persisting positive increase in mood from this dosage assuming they had first tried 35 micrograms, then 67 The last point is particularly good. An expected average of 2 minutes of strong anxiety. With highly compelling therapeutic upsides.

didibus 9y ago

I don't think correctly means in a way that you'll enjoy. Isn't it more about the fact that you could use it correctly in the sense that it will have time limited effects which will not render you a danger to society or yourself. Have no idea about the effects of acid, but if a bad trip is had, but the effects subdue completely and during the trip you're not self harming or harming others, I'd say that qualifies as correctly no?

metaphorm 9y ago

yes, you can. a psychedelic trip will be different every time but you can very definitely control your mindset and physical setting to make sure your experience is safe and you are free to explore whatever experience comes to you on your own terms.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago

Trips don't fit neatly into a good/bad dichotomy. There are certainly cases where people get very overwhelmed and simply aren't prepared for the experience, but even in those cases, many take something valuable away from it. Sometimes things get worse before they get better. I'm not saying that all trips are 'actually good' or some such. But it's not like you're rolling the dice; pretty much every 'bad' experience can be attributed to doing too much and/or doing it in a bad setting or with a poor mindset. And even in those cases, some basic prep to learn to not resist the trip, to just go with it, can make recovery quite achievable. Basically, some of the more 'difficult' trips can also be among the most valuable. To use acid 'correctly' (I disagree with this idea), you simply have to be prepared for whatever comes your way. You may confront some personal demons, but if you're ready to face that, then the benefits from doing so are enormous.