4 ms·

Germany plans to fingerprint children, spy on personal messaging

41 points by nilson 9y ago

skookumchuck 9y ago
The odds of being killed in a terrorist attack in Europe or the US are essentially zero. But the odds of being killed in a car crash, by a hospital mistake, falling in the shower, are very real. This is a classic, and irrational, disproportionate response. Besides, is there any evidence that monitoring 100% of message traffic will reduce terrorist attacks? Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan their attacks via a monitored channel? Do governments really have any problem catching and convicting criminals?
- artursapek 9y ago
  You can't really treat terrorist attacks (intentional) the same way you treat car crashes, hospital mistakes, and falling in the shower (accidental). It's not a pure numbers game.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    Why can't we? Doesn't this extreme overreaction simply encourage the terrorists?
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  > Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan their attacks via a monitored channel? Actually yes! The Paris attack was coordinated via sms. I know other attacks have been coordinated via monitored channels. The real problem is that even with all this monitoring, nothing is being done to stop terrorist attacks. Turns out, stopping terrorist attacks was never the point in the first place, who woulda though!?! https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypted-communications-between-terror-suspects/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypt... *edit: It's probably not fair to say "nothing" is being done. But we're definitely putting our efforts into the wrong direction, and I stand by the statement that the point is not to stop the attacks.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    > The Paris attack was coordinated via sms. Coordinated, yes, but I seriously doubt they texted their intentions and purpose.
- ooyy 9y ago
  Risk of terrorism is fat tailed, there is a chance albeit extremely low that an attack causes the whole world go unhinged causing extreme destruction. Meanwhile falling on shower the risks are local and predictable, devastating for the individual but not impactful in the grand scheme of things.
jvdh 9y ago
The headline is misleading. They are not planning to fingerprint all children. They are lowering the age at which refugee children are being fingerprinted (from 14 to 6). This is part of the EU process of making sure that refugees are handled properly.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  The problem is that the fingerprint data will not be used exclusively for immigration purposes but also for general crime fighting. I oppose that - because it is the first step to extend the surveillance state. Next to no one cares if refugees are forced to give up their fingerprints (except maybe the radical left), most people will actually silently approve of this, but who guarantees that in four years this won't be extended to every German? And yes, there's precedence for politicians doing this - the Maut data, as well as the Vorratsdatenspeicherung (internet provider data), were once thought to be only for serious crimes but there are already plans to use the data also to fight "common lowlevel crime"... We may trust our current governments but we cannot trust what future governments will do.
  - bad_user 9y ago
    Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the alternative is to close the borders. So at this point, pick your poison: let tens or hundreds of thousands die of war or starvation, or take away freedoms that they wouldn't have without having crossed those borders anyway. I'm a libertarian at heart, I've been very sympathetic towards refugees, however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and Germany, I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a periodic tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc). The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else. There's no such thing as "immigration purposes". And when you're going into somebody's house, you obey their rules, otherwise you're free to go elsewhere.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the alternative is to close the borders. "high rate of incidents"? Next to all recent terrorist attacks in the last years involved people who were born in Europe. According to Sascha Lobo and other media reports, all of them were known to police for being violent and dangerous, one of the London terrorists actually was on a TV show "the jihadist next door". And the (real) problems, e.g. overcrowding refugee camps, could be solved by solidarity in Europe, but right now it's Italy and Greece picking up the brunt of the load, then Germany - and then, with a vast distance, every other country in Europe. Despite especially the Eastern European (Visegrad) countries having profited massively by financial solidarity from the rest of Europe (which is mainly DE, FR, UK). > however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and Germany, I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a periodic tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc). They have a tendency to nationalism/populism because populism does not work with evidence and facts but rather with emotions and propaganda. > The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else. Well, let's take the immigration discussion out of the view for one moment: for now, for example, protests are legal. But what prevents a future government from using fingerprint data or especially biometric photo data to prosecute people for protesting against government? Nothing. And this is why such movements must be stopped before a future government turns against its citizens.
nyolfen 9y ago
considering at least two islamist attacks in germany by a refugee have been carried by a minor[1][2], i don't think that fingerprinting refugee minors should be out of the question -- though obviously the details should be carefully deliberated. there is absolutely no way that mandatory government spyware on phones will guarantee effectiveness, though -- the bataclan attackers for instance used ordinary sms to coordinate[3]. besides that, the potential for abuse is unfathomable. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-blow-nail-bomb-german-christmas-market/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-many-injured/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-... [3] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrorist.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrori...
- cholantesh 9y ago
  The first attack was not carried out by a refugee, at least, not per the text of the article.
mtkd 9y ago
this is happening by the backdoor - at the last school we used we got a letter saying a US defence manufacturer was providing a library system for the UK school that used biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this" - I suspect it was provided at little or no cost the new door entry system at the current school (I don't know the vendor yet) is using biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this" 1.28M (2015) UK school children have given biometrics: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/privacy-concerns-raised-as-more-than-one-million-pupils-are-fingerprinted-in-schools-9034897.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/p...
olegkikin 9y ago
The title is false. Has nothing to do with IT. Admins?
- jugbee 9y ago
  Germany wants to backdoor cellphones, how is that not related to IT?
tempodox 9y ago
My next startup will offer a carrier pigeon service.
jugbee 9y ago
Wow Germany, mandatoory backdoors? And I had my hopes in you

41 points by nilson 9y ago

The odds of being killed in a terrorist attack in Europe or the US are essentially zero. But the odds of being killed in a car crash, by a hospital mistake, falling in the shower, are very real. This is a classic, and irrational, disproportionate response. Besides, is there any evidence that monitoring 100% of message traffic will reduce terrorist attacks? Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan their attacks via a monitored channel? Do governments really have any problem catching and convicting criminals?

artursapek 9y ago
You can't really treat terrorist attacks (intentional) the same way you treat car crashes, hospital mistakes, and falling in the shower (accidental). It's not a pure numbers game.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  Why can't we? Doesn't this extreme overreaction simply encourage the terrorists?
CaptSpify 9y ago
> Are terrorists really so dumb they're going to plan their attacks via a monitored channel? Actually yes! The Paris attack was coordinated via sms. I know other attacks have been coordinated via monitored channels. The real problem is that even with all this monitoring, nothing is being done to stop terrorist attacks. Turns out, stopping terrorist attacks was never the point in the first place, who woulda though!?! https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypted-communications-between-terror-suspects/ https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypt... *edit: It's probably not fair to say "nothing" is being done. But we're definitely putting our efforts into the wrong direction, and I stand by the statement that the point is not to stop the attacks.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  > The Paris attack was coordinated via sms. Coordinated, yes, but I seriously doubt they texted their intentions and purpose.
ooyy 9y ago
Risk of terrorism is fat tailed, there is a chance albeit extremely low that an attack causes the whole world go unhinged causing extreme destruction. Meanwhile falling on shower the risks are local and predictable, devastating for the individual but not impactful in the grand scheme of things.

jvdh 9y ago

The headline is misleading. They are not planning to fingerprint all children. They are lowering the age at which refugee children are being fingerprinted (from 14 to 6). This is part of the EU process of making sure that refugees are handled properly.

mschuster91 9y ago
The problem is that the fingerprint data will not be used exclusively for immigration purposes but also for general crime fighting. I oppose that - because it is the first step to extend the surveillance state. Next to no one cares if refugees are forced to give up their fingerprints (except maybe the radical left), most people will actually silently approve of this, but who guarantees that in four years this won't be extended to every German? And yes, there's precedence for politicians doing this - the Maut data, as well as the Vorratsdatenspeicherung (internet provider data), were once thought to be only for serious crimes but there are already plans to use the data also to fight "common lowlevel crime"... We may trust our current governments but we cannot trust what future governments will do.
- bad_user 9y ago
  Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the alternative is to close the borders. So at this point, pick your poison: let tens or hundreds of thousands die of war or starvation, or take away freedoms that they wouldn't have without having crossed those borders anyway. I'm a libertarian at heart, I've been very sympathetic towards refugees, however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and Germany, I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a periodic tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc). The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else. There's no such thing as "immigration purposes". And when you're going into somebody's house, you obey their rules, otherwise you're free to go elsewhere.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > Given the high rate of incidents that Europe is having with immigrants, the alternative is to close the borders. "high rate of incidents"? Next to all recent terrorist attacks in the last years involved people who were born in Europe. According to Sascha Lobo and other media reports, all of them were known to police for being violent and dangerous, one of the London terrorists actually was on a TV show "the jihadist next door". And the (real) problems, e.g. overcrowding refugee camps, could be solved by solidarity in Europe, but right now it's Italy and Greece picking up the brunt of the load, then Germany - and then, with a vast distance, every other country in Europe. Despite especially the Eastern European (Visegrad) countries having profited massively by financial solidarity from the rest of Europe (which is mainly DE, FR, UK). > however seeing lots of immigrants misbehave in my trips to the UK and Germany, I'm beginning to understand nationalism and why people have a periodic tendency towards populism (e.g. Trump, Brexit, etc). They have a tendency to nationalism/populism because populism does not work with evidence and facts but rather with emotions and propaganda. > The whole purpose of fingerprinting is crime fighting. Nothing else. Well, let's take the immigration discussion out of the view for one moment: for now, for example, protests are legal. But what prevents a future government from using fingerprint data or especially biometric photo data to prosecute people for protesting against government? Nothing. And this is why such movements must be stopped before a future government turns against its citizens.

nyolfen 9y ago

considering at least two islamist attacks in germany by a refugee have been carried by a minor[1][2], i don't think that fingerprinting refugee minors should be out of the question -- though obviously the details should be carefully deliberated. there is absolutely no way that mandatory government spyware on phones will guarantee effectiveness, though -- the bataclan attackers for instance used ordinary sms to coordinate[3]. besides that, the potential for abuse is unfathomable. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-blow-nail-bomb-german-christmas-market/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/boy-12-attempted-... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-attack-many-injured/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe-... [3] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrorist.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/11/paris_terrori...

cholantesh 9y ago
The first attack was not carried out by a refugee, at least, not per the text of the article.

mtkd 9y ago

this is happening by the backdoor - at the last school we used we got a letter saying a US defence manufacturer was providing a library system for the UK school that used biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this" - I suspect it was provided at little or no cost the new door entry system at the current school (I don't know the vendor yet) is using biometrics "let us know if you have a problem with this" 1.28M (2015) UK school children have given biometrics: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/privacy-concerns-raised-as-more-than-one-million-pupils-are-fingerprinted-in-schools-9034897.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/p...

olegkikin 9y ago

The title is false. Has nothing to do with IT. Admins?

jugbee 9y ago
Germany wants to backdoor cellphones, how is that not related to IT?

tempodox 9y ago

My next startup will offer a carrier pigeon service.

jugbee 9y ago

Wow Germany, mandatoory backdoors? And I had my hopes in you