5 ms·

What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens? As a german, of course I don't enjoy paying high taxes,

What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens? As a german, of course I don't enjoy paying high taxes, but that changes quickly once you actually get sick. Your health and education should be taken care of regardless of whether you're a janitor or an engineer - or their child, which can't change that status yet.

TurboHaskal 9y ago
Sure this is nice, but other European countries enjoy equal or better public health services with a fraction of taxes. You're delusional if you think your 40% base tax is being mainly spent on education and the health system.
- thirdsun 9y ago
  Yes, you're right, there's certainly some middle ground - I was rather thinking about the other extreme, like the US.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    Taxes aren't that much lower in the US - it's just that what Germany are spending on social programs, the US spends on estabilishing and maintaining world domination (via the military). What is the bigger problem is that gross dev salaries are maybe half of what they are in the US.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      I think the two might be linked. Maintaining world domination via the military effects the demand for engineering talent. It's not always direct; consider what Silicon Valley today would be if there hadn't been a DARPA etc.
    - cko 9y ago
      Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Tomahawk missiles and F15s aren't cheap, but I thought Medicare + Social Security chew up a majority of our tax dollars.
      - humanrebar 9y ago
        They do, along with other entitlements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget EDIT: Keep in mind that this is just the budget of the national government. Each state has its own budget that barely goes to military spending at all, instead focusing on entitlements, especially healthcare costs.
      - freeflight 9y ago
        >Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Those $600+ billion have to come somewhere, don't they? And that doesn't even account for the unaccountable [0]. It doesn't look that bad in % of GDP because of the US's massive GDP, but in pure numbers, the US spends more money on it's military than the next 8 countries on the list combined. [0] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army-idUSKCN10U1IG http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army-idUSKCN10U1... [1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/the-us-spends-more-on-defence-than-all-of-these-countries-combined/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/the-us-spends-more-on...
        humanrebar 9y ago
        Everyone recognizes that. They don't agree that the problem is the U.S. being war hungry as much as the other countries not being willing to chip in. Here's Obama on the subject: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-obama-doctrine/471525/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-oba... """ “Free riders aggravate me,” he told me. Recently, Obama warned that Great Britain would no longer be able to claim a “special relationship” with the United States if it did not commit to spending at least 2 percent of its GDP on defense. “You have to pay your fair share,” Obama told David Cameron, who subsequently met the 2 percent threshold. Part of his mission as president, Obama explained, is to spur other countries to take action for themselves, rather than wait for the U.S. to lead. The defense of the liberal international order against jihadist terror, Russian adventurism, and Chinese bullying depends in part, he believes, on the willingness of other nations to share the burden with the U.S. """
jk2323 9y ago
"What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens?" No. Especially health care is solved much better in most of Europe then in the US, where it is approaching 20% of GDP. 1. Higher wages but this is a tricky thing. Germany exports too much, both, goods AND capital https://thewisemansfear.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dland_kumul_lbil1a198.jpg https://thewisemansfear.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dland_ku... 2. Lower taxes, especially income taxes. 3. Much lower spending on "social" which is approaching a staggering and unsustainable 1 Trillion Euro in Germany. http://www.preussische-allgemeine.de/nachrichten/artikel/sozialkosten-bald-ausser-kontrolle.html http://www.preussische-allgemeine.de/nachrichten/artikel/soz... As the first steps I would do: 1. Invest money into infrastructure which is crumbling 2. Invest in military. If you invest 1.2% of GDP in your military, as Germany does, you don't have a military, you have a museum. Actually, an argument that Trump got right in regards to Germany. (Hey, let the Americans pay) 3. European border defense. Germany has taken millions of illegal immigrants (illegals since none of them would have the right to be an immigrant based on Dublin III regulations). Most of them can't even read. They immigrate into the welfare state. I don't judge this, I would to the same in their position. Immigration should be strictly handled like in Canada or Australia.
- somecallitblues 9y ago
  Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy. You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it. Germany doesn't need to increase the military. It's not running an empire like US. And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class. And Germany is what it is because of migrants. Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any.
  - jk2323 9y ago
    "Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy." We were not talking about "propping up the economy", we were talking about sustaining it. "You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it." This is true. But by "importing all of India we don't make Calcutta rich, we make Germany a Calcutta" as somebody said. "Germany doesn't need to increase the military." Indeed it does not. Germany is in violation of her NATO contractual obligations. As long as she can "outsource" her defense and make the US defend her, maybe. In fact, Germany has no military anymore, Germany has a military museum. "It's not running an empire like US." She is unable to defend herself. Even Switzerland would be a formidable opponent in the current state. How many working tanks are left? 200 Tanks? How many helicopter pilots? http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr-fehlen-Hubschrauber-Piloten-article19883351.html http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr-fehlen-Hubschrauber-Pi... There is nothing anymore. And if you are German you will likely be able to understand the Latin saying: "Si vis pacem, para bellum" "And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class." What other options do you see for the millions of uneducated, low IQ (please refer to Wikipedia) immigrants do you have in mind? Most of them (75%) are supposed to be illiterate. Just social welfare and mosques? "And Germany is what it is because of migrants." Because of immigrants with a cultural similar background. Not because of a massive invasion of uneducated people from violent and tribal societies with a very different religion (I am agnostic). Why did the population of Christians in Turkey fall from 23% to below 1% in the last 100 years? Some things don't match and mix well. "Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any." Japan is a highly educated, highly industrialized, non violent, non tribal, quite egalitarian society with a tolerant religion. Yes, they are over-aging. But all industrialized countries are over-aging. So far it seems to me that the Japanese are doing the best for a soft landing. By the way, they are extremely restrictive to Muslim immigration. http://allfourestates.com/why-japan-has-no-islamic-terrorism-sakoku-and-immigration/ http://allfourestates.com/why-japan-has-no-islamic-terrorism... You may also want to read this: http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/ http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/
rubyfan 9y ago
Don't overlook the inverse incentive created and psychological aspect of this equation. If you are the one working and at the same level as the non-working, there is a cognitive dissonance that cannot be easily overcome.

TurboHaskal 9y ago

Sure this is nice, but other European countries enjoy equal or better public health services with a fraction of taxes. You're delusional if you think your 40% base tax is being mainly spent on education and the health system.

thirdsun 9y ago
Yes, you're right, there's certainly some middle ground - I was rather thinking about the other extreme, like the US.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  Taxes aren't that much lower in the US - it's just that what Germany are spending on social programs, the US spends on estabilishing and maintaining world domination (via the military). What is the bigger problem is that gross dev salaries are maybe half of what they are in the US.
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    I think the two might be linked. Maintaining world domination via the military effects the demand for engineering talent. It's not always direct; consider what Silicon Valley today would be if there hadn't been a DARPA etc.
  - cko 9y ago
    Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Tomahawk missiles and F15s aren't cheap, but I thought Medicare + Social Security chew up a majority of our tax dollars.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      They do, along with other entitlements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget EDIT: Keep in mind that this is just the budget of the national government. Each state has its own budget that barely goes to military spending at all, instead focusing on entitlements, especially healthcare costs.
    - freeflight 9y ago
      >Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Those $600+ billion have to come somewhere, don't they? And that doesn't even account for the unaccountable [0]. It doesn't look that bad in % of GDP because of the US's massive GDP, but in pure numbers, the US spends more money on it's military than the next 8 countries on the list combined. [0] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army-idUSKCN10U1IG http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army-idUSKCN10U1... [1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/the-us-spends-more-on-defence-than-all-of-these-countries-combined/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/the-us-spends-more-on...
      - humanrebar 9y ago
        Everyone recognizes that. They don't agree that the problem is the U.S. being war hungry as much as the other countries not being willing to chip in. Here's Obama on the subject: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-obama-doctrine/471525/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-oba... """ “Free riders aggravate me,” he told me. Recently, Obama warned that Great Britain would no longer be able to claim a “special relationship” with the United States if it did not commit to spending at least 2 percent of its GDP on defense. “You have to pay your fair share,” Obama told David Cameron, who subsequently met the 2 percent threshold. Part of his mission as president, Obama explained, is to spur other countries to take action for themselves, rather than wait for the U.S. to lead. The defense of the liberal international order against jihadist terror, Russian adventurism, and Chinese bullying depends in part, he believes, on the willingness of other nations to share the burden with the U.S. """

jk2323 9y ago

"What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens?" No. Especially health care is solved much better in most of Europe then in the US, where it is approaching 20% of GDP. 1. Higher wages but this is a tricky thing. Germany exports too much, both, goods AND capital https://thewisemansfear.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dland_kumul_lbil1a198.jpg https://thewisemansfear.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dland_ku... 2. Lower taxes, especially income taxes. 3. Much lower spending on "social" which is approaching a staggering and unsustainable 1 Trillion Euro in Germany. http://www.preussische-allgemeine.de/nachrichten/artikel/sozialkosten-bald-ausser-kontrolle.html http://www.preussische-allgemeine.de/nachrichten/artikel/soz... As the first steps I would do: 1. Invest money into infrastructure which is crumbling 2. Invest in military. If you invest 1.2% of GDP in your military, as Germany does, you don't have a military, you have a museum. Actually, an argument that Trump got right in regards to Germany. (Hey, let the Americans pay) 3. European border defense. Germany has taken millions of illegal immigrants (illegals since none of them would have the right to be an immigrant based on Dublin III regulations). Most of them can't even read. They immigrate into the welfare state. I don't judge this, I would to the same in their position. Immigration should be strictly handled like in Canada or Australia.

somecallitblues 9y ago
Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy. You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it. Germany doesn't need to increase the military. It's not running an empire like US. And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class. And Germany is what it is because of migrants. Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any.
- jk2323 9y ago
  "Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy." We were not talking about "propping up the economy", we were talking about sustaining it. "You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it." This is true. But by "importing all of India we don't make Calcutta rich, we make Germany a Calcutta" as somebody said. "Germany doesn't need to increase the military." Indeed it does not. Germany is in violation of her NATO contractual obligations. As long as she can "outsource" her defense and make the US defend her, maybe. In fact, Germany has no military anymore, Germany has a military museum. "It's not running an empire like US." She is unable to defend herself. Even Switzerland would be a formidable opponent in the current state. How many working tanks are left? 200 Tanks? How many helicopter pilots? http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr-fehlen-Hubschrauber-Piloten-article19883351.html http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr-fehlen-Hubschrauber-Pi... There is nothing anymore. And if you are German you will likely be able to understand the Latin saying: "Si vis pacem, para bellum" "And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class." What other options do you see for the millions of uneducated, low IQ (please refer to Wikipedia) immigrants do you have in mind? Most of them (75%) are supposed to be illiterate. Just social welfare and mosques? "And Germany is what it is because of migrants." Because of immigrants with a cultural similar background. Not because of a massive invasion of uneducated people from violent and tribal societies with a very different religion (I am agnostic). Why did the population of Christians in Turkey fall from 23% to below 1% in the last 100 years? Some things don't match and mix well. "Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any." Japan is a highly educated, highly industrialized, non violent, non tribal, quite egalitarian society with a tolerant religion. Yes, they are over-aging. But all industrialized countries are over-aging. So far it seems to me that the Japanese are doing the best for a soft landing. By the way, they are extremely restrictive to Muslim immigration. http://allfourestates.com/why-japan-has-no-islamic-terrorism-sakoku-and-immigration/ http://allfourestates.com/why-japan-has-no-islamic-terrorism... You may also want to read this: http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/ http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/

rubyfan 9y ago

Don't overlook the inverse incentive created and psychological aspect of this equation. If you are the one working and at the same level as the non-working, there is a cognitive dissonance that cannot be easily overcome.