8 ms·

1. Salaries are much lower than, let's say US or Switzerland. 2. Taxes are much higher then, let's say US or Switzerland. 3. Real Estate prices are totally ou

by jk2323 9y ago

1. Salaries are much lower than, let's say US or Switzerland. 2. Taxes are much higher then, let's say US or Switzerland. 3. Real Estate prices are totally out of whack. So if you make 60k (a very good salary for an engineer even in a big city) and want to raise a family of four you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four. But yes, you have access to schools, universities and health care. The trend that people are leaving or looking for exit options is definitely significant accelerating.

jhou2 9y ago
In Germany, tuition is nearly free or minimal, especially compared to US. With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor. Like the food, German life is quite bland as well.
- jk2323 9y ago
  "I feel people can do almost anything they want there" 'We have always done it that way and we will keep doing it that way'. There is very little chance for change and opportunity. Also, very little venture capital. I don't live in Germany but I can now afford to buy a house. The reason I can afford this is: BECAUSE I don't live in Germany. Yet, buying a house or an apartment in Germany is totally off the table. Why? 1. I disagree with the unlimited immigration into the welfare state that will make the welfare state collapse and totally changes our non-violent open society into a more violent and tribal one. 2. Real Estate or "Immobilien" or "inmuebles" how it is called in other languages. A much better word than real estate. It means "Non Mobile". And currently real estate taxes in Germany are basically zero compared with let's say New Jersey. This will change. The government will sooner of later have to tax the shit out of the real estate owners. And again, it is NON MOBILE, while you can leave, your house can't. In my opinion it would be madness to buy a house there.
- mseebach 9y ago
  > With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor I hear that in Denmark as well, but I feel it's often accompanied by a very strong unspoken assumption around what, out of 'anything', one should want to do. Denmark is a pretty sweet deal if you have a decent income, property mortgaged to the rafters (the only real tax break is for interest payments) and a couple of kids in institution/school age (and healthy private pension savings). If that lifestyle does not appeal to you, you are going to be paying through the nose for frankly very little. This also informs the "ambition" bit. Having high ambitions is firmly in the "should not want" camp, so not a lot of people seem to have them, and the ones that do certainly keep them private if they want to considered polite company. Every year around graduation time, the newspapers have a raft of op eds on how "straight A students" are actually miserable and missing out on youth, while the mediocre students are celebrated for knowing how to live and have fun.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  "but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor" Which is probably a net positive, maybe even for the rich.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  >Like the food, German life is quite bland as well. American life is bland! I'm not sure we actually know a way to arrange society that allows for most people to have exciting lives instead of bland or miserable ones.
thirdsun 9y ago
What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens? As a german, of course I don't enjoy paying high taxes, but that changes quickly once you actually get sick. Your health and education should be taken care of regardless of whether you're a janitor or an engineer - or their child, which can't change that status yet.
- TurboHaskal 9y ago
  Sure this is nice, but other European countries enjoy equal or better public health services with a fraction of taxes. You're delusional if you think your 40% base tax is being mainly spent on education and the health system.
  - thirdsun 9y ago
    Yes, you're right, there's certainly some middle ground - I was rather thinking about the other extreme, like the US.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      Taxes aren't that much lower in the US - it's just that what Germany are spending on social programs, the US spends on estabilishing and maintaining world domination (via the military). What is the bigger problem is that gross dev salaries are maybe half of what they are in the US.
      - jpttsn 9y ago
        I think the two might be linked. Maintaining world domination via the military effects the demand for engineering talent. It's not always direct; consider what Silicon Valley today would be if there hadn't been a DARPA etc.
      - cko 9y ago
        Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Tomahawk missiles and F15s aren't cheap, but I thought Medicare + Social Security chew up a majority of our tax dollars.
lentil_soup 9y ago
"you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four" That's an exaggeration. A non-working family (not sure what immigrant has to do with it) does not have access to the same quality of life than a working family with salaries of 60k. Sure, health and education-wise they both enjoy the same benefits, but for sure not in housing as you mention in your third point.
- sparkling 9y ago
  60k€ results in ~2900€/month after taxes for a married person. A decent appartement in a big sout/west german city for 4 people will easily cost you 1250€ or more. Subtract further costs for transportation etc. and your living standard is indeed not mich higher than that of a undemployeed family with free housing and welfare benefits. But gotta feed them "refugees", eh?
  - lentil_soup 9y ago
    I live in a decent apartment in a big south/west German city, I have a 60k+ salary and yes, I pay a lot in taxes and for rent. There's NO way I have the same quality of life as an unemployed family, while they might get some money from the state it's nowhere close to a 60k salary. Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there. I have no problem with feeding and sheltering refugees. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...
    - sparkling 9y ago
      > Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there. Because it's tax smart. If you own real estate, all repair, maintenance costs etc. can be deducted from your taxable rental income. On the other hand, if you live in a property you own, all maintenance costs are paid from your after-tax personal income.

by jk2323 9y ago

jhou2 9y ago

In Germany, tuition is nearly free or minimal, especially compared to US. With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor. Like the food, German life is quite bland as well.

jk2323 9y ago
"I feel people can do almost anything they want there" 'We have always done it that way and we will keep doing it that way'. There is very little chance for change and opportunity. Also, very little venture capital. I don't live in Germany but I can now afford to buy a house. The reason I can afford this is: BECAUSE I don't live in Germany. Yet, buying a house or an apartment in Germany is totally off the table. Why? 1. I disagree with the unlimited immigration into the welfare state that will make the welfare state collapse and totally changes our non-violent open society into a more violent and tribal one. 2. Real Estate or "Immobilien" or "inmuebles" how it is called in other languages. A much better word than real estate. It means "Non Mobile". And currently real estate taxes in Germany are basically zero compared with let's say New Jersey. This will change. The government will sooner of later have to tax the shit out of the real estate owners. And again, it is NON MOBILE, while you can leave, your house can't. In my opinion it would be madness to buy a house there.
mseebach 9y ago
> With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor I hear that in Denmark as well, but I feel it's often accompanied by a very strong unspoken assumption around what, out of 'anything', one should want to do. Denmark is a pretty sweet deal if you have a decent income, property mortgaged to the rafters (the only real tax break is for interest payments) and a couple of kids in institution/school age (and healthy private pension savings). If that lifestyle does not appeal to you, you are going to be paying through the nose for frankly very little. This also informs the "ambition" bit. Having high ambitions is firmly in the "should not want" camp, so not a lot of people seem to have them, and the ones that do certainly keep them private if they want to considered polite company. Every year around graduation time, the newspapers have a raft of op eds on how "straight A students" are actually miserable and missing out on youth, while the mediocre students are celebrated for knowing how to live and have fun.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
"but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor" Which is probably a net positive, maybe even for the rich.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
>Like the food, German life is quite bland as well. American life is bland! I'm not sure we actually know a way to arrange society that allows for most people to have exciting lives instead of bland or miserable ones.

thirdsun 9y ago

What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens? As a german, of course I don't enjoy paying high taxes, but that changes quickly once you actually get sick. Your health and education should be taken care of regardless of whether you're a janitor or an engineer - or their child, which can't change that status yet.

TurboHaskal 9y ago
Sure this is nice, but other European countries enjoy equal or better public health services with a fraction of taxes. You're delusional if you think your 40% base tax is being mainly spent on education and the health system.
- thirdsun 9y ago
  Yes, you're right, there's certainly some middle ground - I was rather thinking about the other extreme, like the US.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    Taxes aren't that much lower in the US - it's just that what Germany are spending on social programs, the US spends on estabilishing and maintaining world domination (via the military). What is the bigger problem is that gross dev salaries are maybe half of what they are in the US.
    - jpttsn 9y ago
      I think the two might be linked. Maintaining world domination via the military effects the demand for engineering talent. It's not always direct; consider what Silicon Valley today would be if there hadn't been a DARPA etc.
    - cko 9y ago
      Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Tomahawk missiles and F15s aren't cheap, but I thought Medicare + Social Security chew up a majority of our tax dollars.

lentil_soup 9y ago

"you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four" That's an exaggeration. A non-working family (not sure what immigrant has to do with it) does not have access to the same quality of life than a working family with salaries of 60k. Sure, health and education-wise they both enjoy the same benefits, but for sure not in housing as you mention in your third point.

sparkling 9y ago
60k€ results in ~2900€/month after taxes for a married person. A decent appartement in a big sout/west german city for 4 people will easily cost you 1250€ or more. Subtract further costs for transportation etc. and your living standard is indeed not mich higher than that of a undemployeed family with free housing and welfare benefits. But gotta feed them "refugees", eh?
- lentil_soup 9y ago
  I live in a decent apartment in a big south/west German city, I have a 60k+ salary and yes, I pay a lot in taxes and for rent. There's NO way I have the same quality of life as an unemployed family, while they might get some money from the state it's nowhere close to a 60k salary. Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there. I have no problem with feeding and sheltering refugees. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...
  - sparkling 9y ago
    > Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there. Because it's tax smart. If you own real estate, all repair, maintenance costs etc. can be deducted from your taxable rental income. On the other hand, if you live in a property you own, all maintenance costs are paid from your after-tax personal income.