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I completely agree with the article. Car drivers have to have a lot more responsibility for their actions. They are already the worst part of every city, with t

I completely agree with the article. Car drivers have to have a lot more responsibility for their actions. They are already the worst part of every city, with their excessive honking, stinky exhaust and lack of awareness of their surroundings. So far, while riding on the side of a road, I've had a pickup truck driver trying to kill me in the US; numerous buses and trucks trying to hit me or run me off the road, SUV drivers and passengers trying to hit me with garbage and multiple people threatening me with violence (and a bus who had actually succeeded in hitting me) in Lithuania. Just over several years of commuting. In addition, I closely follow traffic rules, and always do the hand signals for turns. Basically, ride the bike the same way as I would drive a car. I also refuse to ever ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. In contrast, in Denmark, the drivers were very aware of every bicycle and pedestrian and much more relaxed towards them. It felt like utopia there, and according to the locals, the strict liability laws are a large part of it. Another significant reason is that Danes in general are much more calm and relaxed than anyone else I've seen so far.

vacri 9y ago
Everyone kicks down. I've seen drivers treat cyclists like shit, and seen cyclists treat pedestrians like shit. In my hometown there have been a couple of deaths of pedestrians because cyclists are too busy being macho on their morning commute. As a pedestrian, I've been buzzed and verbally abused by cyclists riding where they're not supposed to. Yes, the cars:cyclists thing is more dangerous to life and limb, but cyclists:pedestrians has the same proportion of arseholes. I'm not sure who pedestrians 'kick down' to, but no doubt they'd be the same if they do.
- droopyEyelids 9y ago
  This is your argument in favor of the status quo? Or are you just expressing some feelings?
- sidlls 9y ago
  I commute by bicycle. Cars are generally something I don't have to worry about because my commute is mainly not on roads and where it is there are generous bike lanes (although I have been almost hit by cars, deliberately, before). The non-road portions of my commute are on paths that are marked at regular intervals with words and symbols noting that the paths are shared between pedestrians and cyclists. Every "close encounter" with a pedestrian I've ever had has been because the pedestrian, usually with his face buried deeply into his phone, starts swerving to the side or, worse, abruptly turns. Responsibility is on all parties in spaces where there is shared traffic, not just cyclists or cars or pedestrians.
- Fricken 9y ago
  My city had 47 pedestrians killed by cars in 2016, and back in 2010 we had the first and last known pedstrian-cyclist collision fatality, it was an 80 year old man.
  - gleenn 9y ago
    How many cars do you have driving and how many bicycles? If the number of cars is greater than 47x the number of bikes, might completely flip that outcome. I just read the article about statistics errors including base rate fallacy on HN today, worth a read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545089
    - flukus 9y ago
      Another caveat would be how many are sharing the same space. In a lot of places cyclist and pedestrians are sharing a footpath or some sort of shared cycle path. There aren't nearly as many shared spaces between cars and people.
  - vacri 9y ago
    I'm not sure why the focus is so much on the death rate. To me, my comment reads more about the arsehole behaviour of various groups. I even literally state that at the start of the second paragraph. The GP is talking about drivers acting like arseholes, and I'm responding that cyclists act like arseholes too, and so would pedestrians if they had someone to 'kick down' to. Interesting, though, that you seek to 'excuse' the death of the pedestrian in your city 'because he's old', but don't bother to note the age spread of the vehicular deaths.
- quantum_magpie 9y ago
  That is precisely the reason why I refuse to ride on sidewalks and always stop at zebra crossings to let people pass. I tend to think that the person in a higher momentum vehicle has much more liability for his actions, i.e. baby < kid < adult < bicycle < car < SUV < bus.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  "In my hometown there have been a couple of deaths of pedestrians because cyclists are too busy being macho on their morning commute" Over what time frame? Can you cite sources? This would be an unusually high death rate unless you mean over many years.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I cycle a lot myself but I would agree that a lot of cyclists ride like idiots. They are irresponsible around cars and irresponsible around pedestrians. It always bothers me when I see them ride around at night without lights at high speed. That's just asking for trouble.
  - nthcolumn 9y ago
    You probably don't notice the 99% of cyclists who are actually behaving themselves, clowns tend to stand out like that.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      Probably true.
- nthcolumn 9y ago
  I don't know where they get this statistic from. Is it provable? In Sweden they separate cars and bikes and there are much fewer accidents as a result. I heard a cyclist had thrown their bike at a horse because they felt the track was 'bikes-only' (it wasn't and an incredibly stupid thing to do even if it was). Everyone will say cyclists do this, motorists do that, stupid jaywalking pedestrians... blah blah. People are dicks whatever mode of transportation they use and the law should reflect that.
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
  In my hometown I regularly see pedestrians walking/jogging in the bike lanes, even though the sidewalks are clear. I just think every group has its assholes.
  - brewdad 9y ago
    In my hometown, runners use the bike lanes and cyclists use the sidewalks. Not quite that extreme, but true in many cases. I run in bike lanes to avoid the dip and rise at every driveway and to make myself more visible to drivers at intersections. I will hop on the sidewalk if a cyclist is approaching.
- pizzetta 9y ago
  I've seldom had a cyclist stop for me at a crosswalk (when crossing), when they either have a stop sign, or I had the green but there were no cars in the opposite direction. It seems as though they felt I "got in their way" meanwhile as a pedestrian I have the right of way and I should not have to tie my crossing to avoid their path.
nunez 9y ago
Us cyclists are responsible for our safety too. All too often I see cyclists: - running reds and stop signs - riding without helmets (it's all fun and games until you fly through someone's rear windshield and die because helmets are too ugly and bulky for you) - riding on the wrong side of the road We should be treated just like slower cars
- jackmott 9y ago
  denmark has few bike fatalaties per capita and nobody wears helmets. cars all roll stop signs too, its normal and fine usually.
  - cm2012 9y ago
    Rolling stop signs is empirically one of the most dangerous things you can do on the road.
    - shijie 9y ago
      Have any data to back that up?
      - cm2012 9y ago
        70% of accidents near stop sign intersections are from stop sign violations: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733981 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733981 Other sources will show 3000+ deaths per year from stop sign violations.
        zeendo 9y ago
        The study doesn't differentiate between blowing through a stop sign and a rolling stop. You're drawing the conclusion you want, not what the data says.
        ASalazarMX 9y ago
        "70% of accidents near stop sign intersections are from stop sign violations" Wow, who would have thought?

vacri 9y ago

Everyone kicks down. I've seen drivers treat cyclists like shit, and seen cyclists treat pedestrians like shit. In my hometown there have been a couple of deaths of pedestrians because cyclists are too busy being macho on their morning commute. As a pedestrian, I've been buzzed and verbally abused by cyclists riding where they're not supposed to. Yes, the cars:cyclists thing is more dangerous to life and limb, but cyclists:pedestrians has the same proportion of arseholes. I'm not sure who pedestrians 'kick down' to, but no doubt they'd be the same if they do.

droopyEyelids 9y ago
This is your argument in favor of the status quo? Or are you just expressing some feelings?
sidlls 9y ago
I commute by bicycle. Cars are generally something I don't have to worry about because my commute is mainly not on roads and where it is there are generous bike lanes (although I have been almost hit by cars, deliberately, before). The non-road portions of my commute are on paths that are marked at regular intervals with words and symbols noting that the paths are shared between pedestrians and cyclists. Every "close encounter" with a pedestrian I've ever had has been because the pedestrian, usually with his face buried deeply into his phone, starts swerving to the side or, worse, abruptly turns. Responsibility is on all parties in spaces where there is shared traffic, not just cyclists or cars or pedestrians.
Fricken 9y ago
My city had 47 pedestrians killed by cars in 2016, and back in 2010 we had the first and last known pedstrian-cyclist collision fatality, it was an 80 year old man.
- gleenn 9y ago
  How many cars do you have driving and how many bicycles? If the number of cars is greater than 47x the number of bikes, might completely flip that outcome. I just read the article about statistics errors including base rate fallacy on HN today, worth a read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545089
  - flukus 9y ago
    Another caveat would be how many are sharing the same space. In a lot of places cyclist and pedestrians are sharing a footpath or some sort of shared cycle path. There aren't nearly as many shared spaces between cars and people.
- vacri 9y ago
  I'm not sure why the focus is so much on the death rate. To me, my comment reads more about the arsehole behaviour of various groups. I even literally state that at the start of the second paragraph. The GP is talking about drivers acting like arseholes, and I'm responding that cyclists act like arseholes too, and so would pedestrians if they had someone to 'kick down' to. Interesting, though, that you seek to 'excuse' the death of the pedestrian in your city 'because he's old', but don't bother to note the age spread of the vehicular deaths.
quantum_magpie 9y ago
That is precisely the reason why I refuse to ride on sidewalks and always stop at zebra crossings to let people pass. I tend to think that the person in a higher momentum vehicle has much more liability for his actions, i.e. baby < kid < adult < bicycle < car < SUV < bus.
CalRobert 9y ago
"In my hometown there have been a couple of deaths of pedestrians because cyclists are too busy being macho on their morning commute" Over what time frame? Can you cite sources? This would be an unusually high death rate unless you mean over many years.
maxxxxx 9y ago
I cycle a lot myself but I would agree that a lot of cyclists ride like idiots. They are irresponsible around cars and irresponsible around pedestrians. It always bothers me when I see them ride around at night without lights at high speed. That's just asking for trouble.
- nthcolumn 9y ago
  You probably don't notice the 99% of cyclists who are actually behaving themselves, clowns tend to stand out like that.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    Probably true.
nthcolumn 9y ago
I don't know where they get this statistic from. Is it provable? In Sweden they separate cars and bikes and there are much fewer accidents as a result. I heard a cyclist had thrown their bike at a horse because they felt the track was 'bikes-only' (it wasn't and an incredibly stupid thing to do even if it was). Everyone will say cyclists do this, motorists do that, stupid jaywalking pedestrians... blah blah. People are dicks whatever mode of transportation they use and the law should reflect that.
SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
In my hometown I regularly see pedestrians walking/jogging in the bike lanes, even though the sidewalks are clear. I just think every group has its assholes.
- brewdad 9y ago
  In my hometown, runners use the bike lanes and cyclists use the sidewalks. Not quite that extreme, but true in many cases. I run in bike lanes to avoid the dip and rise at every driveway and to make myself more visible to drivers at intersections. I will hop on the sidewalk if a cyclist is approaching.
pizzetta 9y ago
I've seldom had a cyclist stop for me at a crosswalk (when crossing), when they either have a stop sign, or I had the green but there were no cars in the opposite direction. It seems as though they felt I "got in their way" meanwhile as a pedestrian I have the right of way and I should not have to tie my crossing to avoid their path.

nunez 9y ago

Us cyclists are responsible for our safety too. All too often I see cyclists: - running reds and stop signs - riding without helmets (it's all fun and games until you fly through someone's rear windshield and die because helmets are too ugly and bulky for you) - riding on the wrong side of the road We should be treated just like slower cars

jackmott 9y ago
denmark has few bike fatalaties per capita and nobody wears helmets. cars all roll stop signs too, its normal and fine usually.
- cm2012 9y ago
  Rolling stop signs is empirically one of the most dangerous things you can do on the road.
  - shijie 9y ago
    Have any data to back that up?
    - cm2012 9y ago
      70% of accidents near stop sign intersections are from stop sign violations: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733981 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14733981 Other sources will show 3000+ deaths per year from stop sign violations.
      - zeendo 9y ago
        The study doesn't differentiate between blowing through a stop sign and a rolling stop. You're drawing the conclusion you want, not what the data says.
      - ASalazarMX 9y ago
        "70% of accidents near stop sign intersections are from stop sign violations" Wow, who would have thought?