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> There was literally nothing wrong with the email There were at least two things wrong with the email, from my perspective as a guy who's been around plenty o

> There was literally nothing wrong with the email There were at least two things wrong with the email, from my perspective as a guy who's been around plenty of benign bro culture. 1. Explicitly mentioning "sex" as opposed to "relationship" or "dating", and talking about it so casually, sets a very aggressive tone. 20-something guys with lots of hormones will definitely hear that tone and push hard for sex during the trip (the implication is that there will be lots of it, and nobody wants to be left out). Females reading this surely know that they'll receive lots of attention and advances during the trip, whether they want it or not – even if you assume that the guys will be asking for consent, it's still uncomfortable for those who want to be professional and avoid work relationships. 2. "Yes, that means that Travis will be celibate on this trip. #CEOLife #FML." Implication there is that there are many people on the team that the Travis wants to sleep with. If you're a female subordinate of the CEO whom he speaks with somewhat flirtily, you can infer that he's thinking "FML, I wish I could sleep with her".

acchow 9y ago
Why do you talk about females like they are precious snowflakes?
- gammarator 9y ago
  Why do you talk about "females?" The word you are looking for is "women." ("Females" connotes reproductive capacity [1], which is seldom relevant, and is also applied to animals. "Women" are human beings.) [1] http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#eid http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#ei...
  - jpster 9y ago
    I have been noticing more and more people using "female" as opposed to "woman". (They never seem to substitute "male" for men.) Thank you for articulating this.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > "Females" connotes reproductive capacity Almost all bees are females. Almost all of those lack reproductive capacity. "Female", either as noun or an adjective, neither denotes nor connotes reproductive capacity, though it may connote reproductive role (though even then, only as an adjective modifying a species or some similar classification, because reproductive roles vary.) It's use as a noun for a human is seen by some as divisive (compared to an adjective modifying "person") or dehumanizing (compared to "woman or girl"); OTOH, it is seen by others as less awkward than either of those constructions and more accurate when the intebt is not age-specific (thus, making neither "woman" nor "girl" alone appropriate) than any similarly-concise expression.
  - barleyworth 9y ago
    Fair point; I will try and avoid using "females" in the future. FWIW, the main reason I used this phrasing was that I had already used the word "guys", but wanted to steer clear of the analogous word "girls". Using the word "women" seemed like I would be suggesting some sort of age/maturity dichotomy between "guys" and "women", and it seemed to me that "females" didn't have such a connotation.
- sctb 9y ago
  Could you please post civilly and substantively or not at all? We don't need drive-by flamewar incitement like this on Hacker News.
dvt 9y ago
> ... mentioning "sex" as opposed to "relationship" or "dating" ... Sex is a natural human activity. People fuck all the time. People especially fuck at parties where there's alcohol involved. > ... even if you assume that the guys will be asking for consent ... Uh, what? The entire point was to ask for consent. I can't speak to your other hypothesizing about tone, or what 20-something guys might or might not do. > ... there are many people on the team that the Travis wants to sleep with ... Not sure where you're getting "many." Regardless, Travis probably wants to sleep with some of his employees, but he's leading by example and not pursuing. Again, I can't speak to your mental gymnastics as to what an employee might infer or not. I can only read what's in the email.
- sidlls 9y ago
  That something can occur has only superficial relation to whether it ought to be to be discussed in a given setting. Your comment reads as if you have little understanding of how women are treated in our culture.
  - dvt 9y ago
    > That something can occur has only superficial relation to whether it ought to be to be discussed in a given setting. Given the setting (an alcohol-filled after-work work party), I fundamentally disagree. > Your comment reads as if you have little understanding of how women are treated in our culture. My comment didn't mention women, men, or anything in between, because, hey, men sometimes have sex with men! You'll notice that Travis' email didn't mention women either. Since I love channeling my inner Scalia, I'm just going to say that, in general, you're doing yourself a disservice by not being a textualist. With that said, I'm not going to be baited into defending a straw man, many years of philosophy trained me well :)
    - sidlls 9y ago
      "inner Scalia"? "Straw man?" You're being dismissive and aggressive to what purpose?
rogerdonaldson 9y ago
barleyworth, I believe the email was written in a humorous way. If it was a serious email, with that sex point in it, then I agree it would have been weird, and wrong. But the whole email right from the first word to the last was written in a jovial manner with plenty of jokes in it. So I dont feel it was that bad. I can understand that Travis was trying to create a party atmosphere after all of them worked really hard to get to where they are. Imagine, if you and your colleagues worked day and night for years and then finally you reached a milestone -- you might want to celebrate and have some fun! I think Travis was just trying to setup the jovial atmosphere so that people do not just have a standard corporate event.

acchow 9y ago

Why do you talk about females like they are precious snowflakes?

gammarator 9y ago
Why do you talk about "females?" The word you are looking for is "women." ("Females" connotes reproductive capacity [1], which is seldom relevant, and is also applied to animals. "Women" are human beings.) [1] http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#eid http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#ei...
- jpster 9y ago
  I have been noticing more and more people using "female" as opposed to "woman". (They never seem to substitute "male" for men.) Thank you for articulating this.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > "Females" connotes reproductive capacity Almost all bees are females. Almost all of those lack reproductive capacity. "Female", either as noun or an adjective, neither denotes nor connotes reproductive capacity, though it may connote reproductive role (though even then, only as an adjective modifying a species or some similar classification, because reproductive roles vary.) It's use as a noun for a human is seen by some as divisive (compared to an adjective modifying "person") or dehumanizing (compared to "woman or girl"); OTOH, it is seen by others as less awkward than either of those constructions and more accurate when the intebt is not age-specific (thus, making neither "woman" nor "girl" alone appropriate) than any similarly-concise expression.
- barleyworth 9y ago
  Fair point; I will try and avoid using "females" in the future. FWIW, the main reason I used this phrasing was that I had already used the word "guys", but wanted to steer clear of the analogous word "girls". Using the word "women" seemed like I would be suggesting some sort of age/maturity dichotomy between "guys" and "women", and it seemed to me that "females" didn't have such a connotation.
sctb 9y ago
Could you please post civilly and substantively or not at all? We don't need drive-by flamewar incitement like this on Hacker News.

dvt 9y ago

> ... mentioning "sex" as opposed to "relationship" or "dating" ... Sex is a natural human activity. People fuck all the time. People especially fuck at parties where there's alcohol involved. > ... even if you assume that the guys will be asking for consent ... Uh, what? The entire point was to ask for consent. I can't speak to your other hypothesizing about tone, or what 20-something guys might or might not do. > ... there are many people on the team that the Travis wants to sleep with ... Not sure where you're getting "many." Regardless, Travis probably wants to sleep with some of his employees, but he's leading by example and not pursuing. Again, I can't speak to your mental gymnastics as to what an employee might infer or not. I can only read what's in the email.

sidlls 9y ago
That something can occur has only superficial relation to whether it ought to be to be discussed in a given setting. Your comment reads as if you have little understanding of how women are treated in our culture.
- dvt 9y ago
  > That something can occur has only superficial relation to whether it ought to be to be discussed in a given setting. Given the setting (an alcohol-filled after-work work party), I fundamentally disagree. > Your comment reads as if you have little understanding of how women are treated in our culture. My comment didn't mention women, men, or anything in between, because, hey, men sometimes have sex with men! You'll notice that Travis' email didn't mention women either. Since I love channeling my inner Scalia, I'm just going to say that, in general, you're doing yourself a disservice by not being a textualist. With that said, I'm not going to be baited into defending a straw man, many years of philosophy trained me well :)
  - sidlls 9y ago
    "inner Scalia"? "Straw man?" You're being dismissive and aggressive to what purpose?

rogerdonaldson 9y ago

barleyworth, I believe the email was written in a humorous way. If it was a serious email, with that sex point in it, then I agree it would have been weird, and wrong. But the whole email right from the first word to the last was written in a jovial manner with plenty of jokes in it. So I dont feel it was that bad. I can understand that Travis was trying to create a party atmosphere after all of them worked really hard to get to where they are. Imagine, if you and your colleagues worked day and night for years and then finally you reached a milestone -- you might want to celebrate and have some fun! I think Travis was just trying to setup the jovial atmosphere so that people do not just have a standard corporate event.