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I really don't buy the Travis Kalanik hate. Yeah, Uber started out as your typical SV unicorn (bro warts and all). Yeah, Uber's entire business model can be des
by dvt 9y ago
I really don't buy the Travis Kalanik hate. Yeah, Uber started out as your typical SV unicorn (bro warts and all). Yeah, Uber's entire business model can be described as "grey-area" at best and its business practices as sometimes exploitative.
But this is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. This is exactly how FB started out. And this follows every rule in the startup book to a tee. Look, we can't have it both ways, guys. The recent stuff about Travis has been downright witch-hunty. I mean, every single article about the "leaked" memo was headlined as "You can have sex with your coworkers -- if..." I mean, come on.
There was literally nothing wrong with the email, but every single paper covered it in some weird passive-aggressive way. Same with the previous story where TK gets in the altercation with the Uber driver on video. Travis was (yet again) 100% in the right there, but everyone spun it like he was being some kind of asshole, when the driver blindsided him.
To be honest, I'm no Travis Kalanik fanboy (in spite of sharing the same alma mater), but the guy obviously knows what he's doing. He found, by accident or not, a market desperately in need of disruption and absolutely nailed it. Uber is a cultural phenomenon that arguably has more longevity than something like Facebook.
I just think he's been treated unfairly because of his playboy flair, but he's actually a pretty smart, ruthless business leader. Even this story tries hard to dehumanize him (cut him some slack; his mom just passed away). I don't really understand why.
- exogeny 9y agoHe presided over a culture of widespread sexual harassment that has been echoed repeatedly by multiple employees and you don't really understand why he's being criticized? Cool story, bro.
- dvt 9y agoUber has 12000 employees; 20 were reprimanded for sexual harassment. That's 0.001%
- rajathagasthya 9y agoWhat percentage do you need it to be to acknowledge sexual harassment is a problem in that company?
- barsonme 9y agoWhy not flip it around a bit: what percentage do you think? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for Uber or sexual harassment or any nonsense like that. I (seriously) just want to know if you're advocating for giving every company with a > 0.0% harassment rate the Uber treatment.
- braveo 9y agoThe rate is a red herring, it's the reaction when it was reported. Imagine if your local PD reported that they only ignored .01% of 911 calls. Would you find that acceptable?
- barsonme 9y agoI don't disagree. The the parent comments focused on how often the harassment happened—not Uber's response—so it piqued my curiosity.
- rajathagasthya 9y agoI'm not the one dismissing a blatant problem based on a tiny percentage value. We've seen in various accounts that many incidents were swept under the rug because the person was a supposed "high performer". Then there is the recent email issue. This suggests that the problem is top-down in the company. When the problem is top-down, surely you deserve such treatment?
- barsonme 9y agoRight! The issue is management sweeping the allegations under the rug. A lot of the hate towards Uber in these threads seems to be about the number of allegations, not that they were swept under the rug (in my opinion at least–I don't read HN religiously). That, I think, leads us to where we are right now: a comment thread that's basically about "what's the minimum number of sexual harassments can occur before a company has a 'problem'?" I'm not trying to pick on you, so I apologize if I come across that way.
- dralley 9y ago20 have been reprimanded so far
- exogeny 9y agoYeah, and at other companies, they're handled internally with respect and compassion. That's why you don't read about them in Medium posts where the employee repeatedly points to appalling failures within the organization.
- BookmarkSaver 9y agoActually, you probably can. It's just that no one cares about "Initech corp" or whatever, while Uber's name alone guarantees headlines.
- TarpitCarnivore 9y ago20 out of 200 cases found by the investigation. Who knows how many others were not logged or never reported.
- smacktoward 9y agoSexual harassment cases are like cockroaches: by the time you see one, you can be sure there's lots more crawling around behind the walls.
- compiler-guy 9y agoDetails matter--get this one right, please! Twenty were _fired_ for sexual harassment issues. Given what we know of Uber's internal culture, my money says that many, many more were counseled, reprimanded or whatever than just those twenty.
- lhorie 9y agoIIRC, of the 215 cases that were investigated, 20 resulted in termination, some 17 resulted in warnings (i.e. if HR hears complaints about you again, you're fired), and some 27 resulted in counseling. The rest were found to be either simple enough to resolve with a conversation, or about ex-employees, or lacking information, or unfounded accusations. There's now a new anonymous hotline where employees can report harassment, so presumably any new reported cases will be investigated by the law firm that was hired for this.
- pishpash 9y agoThat's 0.2%, not 0.001%.
- rosser 9y agoPlease revisit basic arithmetic. 20/12000 = 0.001666... 20/12000 ≠ "0.001%" And that's only the count of people fired. So far. It's not the count of disciplinary actions of any sort, not even the count of cases that were investigated, and certainly not the count of incidents, full stop.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoIsn't the problem more about how the company handled the complaints? Your record on shutting that stuff down once it's reported should be flawless - Uber's isn't.
- jaclaz 9y ago>Uber has 12000 employees; 20 were reprimanded for sexual harassment. That's 0.001% Well those are the ones that were actually fired. http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/uber-has-fired-more-than-20-employees-following-harassment-investigation-sources-say http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/uber-h... Seemingly: 215 issues investigated 100 dismissed 57 still under investigation 31 in counseling or training 7 reprimanded in writing more than 20 fired 215/12000 is near to 2%, such a number of "cases", even if half of them are dismissed should trigger each and every possible alarm.
- canes123456 9y agoHR lie to multiple victims of harassment to protect the harasser. This does not happen in normal companies. This is not about the number of harassers, but systemic protecting of them.
- kolbe 9y agoIt is a complete shame that some SJW cause like the contemporary definition of sexual harassment (like talking about ones sex life at work[1]) can be considered more important than revolutionizing transportation. [1] https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-on...
- golbez 9y ago"Bro, Hitler built schools too" gimme a break. stop giving people an excuse because they know how to have people build something good. leaders fail when they treat people like shit.
- malandrew 9y agodang, can we ban any account that exercises Godwin's Law? It always lowers the quality of discourse.
- nolok 9y ago> "Bro, Hitler built schools too" There mere fact that you compare him to Hitler, even as a joke, makes his point about how ridiculous your views are. If anything, compare him to Gates.
- ams6110 9y ago> There was literally nothing wrong with the email I have worked in tech for 30 years and have never seen anything even approaching the content of that email. It was completely unprofessional in every way.
- BlackjackCF 9y agoIt's kind of sad that my standard for Uber was so low that after I read the email, I concluded that it was super unprofessional, but at least he made it explicit to not fraternize with someone within your chain of command and to get consent. But yeah, still gross.
- mst 9y agoMy thoughts were largely "this is probably the phrasing most likely to actually get his staff to moderate their behaviour in the mentioned ways, so I don't blame him for writing it that way" ... combined with "I do, however, absolutely blame him for letting a culture develop where that was the most effective phrasing"
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- burkaman 9y ago> this is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. Why? Can you not think of any massively successful startups that didn't rely on exploitative grey-area business practices?
- m12r 9y agoCan you? Microsoft Antitrust nightmare that probably set them back 5 years. Google for invading our privacy, they are still fighting big important battles in Europe. Facebook for similar privacy invasion, the whole beacon debacle. There are a lot of things that they probably did wrong, but not to the extend that the press is picturing it. Agreed 100% w/ dvt.
- burkaman 9y agoI could be missing some shady history, but off the top of my head how about Square? Edit: Dropbox, Craigslist, GitHub, PayPal, Instagram, Tesla, SpaceX, Twitter Anyone feel free to jump in if I'm ignoring any exploitation or shadiness. Bad examples: Spotify and Snapchat.
- dnr 9y agoA few seconds on google: http://gizmodo.com/early-spotify-was-built-on-pirated-mp3-files-new-book-1795109991 http://gizmodo.com/early-spotify-was-built-on-pirated-mp3-fi... http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/05/09/spotify-illegal-mp3s-investigator/ http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/05/09/spotify-illegal-m...
- burkaman 9y agoThanks. This seems unconfirmed but pretty believable, so strike Spotify off my list.
- dvt 9y agoSnapchat? The early version of the app was literally only used by sexting teenagers in Orange County high schools.
- Stryder 9y agoTK has the unfortunate habit of leaving a trail of history of screwing his employees, and that shit stinks, and sticks. You either: Treat your employees well such that they will go to war for you because protecting your interests is as important as protecting themselves and their own interests. OR Be the unbendable, spotless and ruthlessly calculating leader raising a horde of mindless robots. You churn them out and turn them over as soon as they're used up, but there's no room for you to be a flawed human being. Can't have the cake and eat it too. Know thyself, and choose your path.
- Balgair 9y agoMachiavelli outlined the choice in 'The Prince': To be loved to to be feared? Remember the the conclusion the Italian came to: Fear is more stable, become feared.
- saalweachter 9y agoIn his satirical work.
- Balgair 9y agoNo, for real though, I thought Machiavelli said it was satirical after torture. Honestly, though, I don't actually know if is was intended as satire from the start. Was it?
- saalweachter 9y agoHe wrote it shortly after being tortured by the Medici; it wasn't published until after Machiavelli's death [although it was likely circulated before then].
- rosser 9y agoYeah, I don't think The Prince was intended to be taken normatively.
- vkou 9y agoYou are not supposed to run a massively successful startup by blatantly breaking every single consumer protection law that gets in the way of your profit margin. The e-mail by itself isn't the only problem. It's that it's just one line in a list of unethical, illegal or abusive behaviour that's as long as his arm. Keep in mind - this is also the guy that stole money from the IRS (By funding his previous company with money he was supposed to withhold for employee income taxes... And by not charging taxi/sales taxes on Uber rides in many, many jurisdcitions), from drivers (By dramatically cutting their share of fares - after many of them were locked into long-term leases for their vehicles - leases sold to them by Uber), and who has blatantly lied to the public. (About Uber's background check policies, or the lack thereof. While having the audacity to charge riders a 'background check fee'.) If running a successful startup requires being a completely terrible corporate citizen, then the valley needs to be burnt to the ground, before it drags the rest of us down with it.
- blfr 9y agoThese are consumer protection laws in name only. The laws/rules/regulations that Uber is breaking are first, foremost, and pretty much exclusively protecting the taxi industry.
- bjl 9y agoIf they really believed that then they should have fought those laws in the political arena rather than just ignoring them.
- AndrewKemendo 9y agoruthless business leader That's what people don't like. The people who are most vocal don't like the "do anything it takes" approach.
- TarpitCarnivore 9y agoBeing a ruthless business leader does not mean allowing a toxic culture to exist under your leadership. Being ruthless doesn't mean sending an executive to another country to get medical records on someone who is filing a lawsuit. It doesn't mean having an HR department that ignores sexual harassment If you cannot separate the two then that's a very big problem
- ronilan 9y ago> But this is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. This is exactly how FB started out. "A famous man once paraphrased, 'We create our own role models.'" -- Tony Stank
- mtkd 9y agothere is likely more to the story - the volume of negative stories across all mediums really stinks - I fully expect it to come out that negativity was heavily funded at some point I get some newsworthy things have happened there - but you'd expect that with such explosive/disruptive growth story I know a lot of people who use Uber - they love the service - and it's become a verb - the online/media profile I see of the company has no resemblance to how everyone I interact with see it irl
- jartelt 9y agoHe could have toned down the "playboy flair" and bro attitude as the company got larger and many of these PR issues would have been avoided (or would have been less of an issue). Perhaps just tell the cab driver that you will look into the issue rather than try to win an argument. Many of the things he has done are not wrong in a vacuum, but are not the right way of doing things when you want to run an inclusive company with a good culture.
- geodel 9y agoI agree with most of what you said. But I guess what you are missing is that huge outrage machines like Twitter, FB and new generation online media did not existed 10 years back or at least in this form and with such global reach. So many powerful people in past have had it easy for their less than perfect behavior.
- NathanKP 9y agoThis isn't just the press covering Uber in a negative way. I had been hearing horrible stories in private from former and current Uber engineers for several years before the first big press stories broke and personal blogs about Uber went viral. I wasn't surprised in the slightest that the press starting covering these Uber culture issues in a negative way, I was surprised that it took so long before they picked up the story and did. Several engineers that I have talked to over the years had already been turning down Uber recruiters specifically because of Uber's culture problems, and I had already turned down their recruiters a few times as well as recommended to others to do the same. Their culture has been hurting the company for a long time, and its long past time for them to do something about it. If that means Kalanik needs to be ousted then they should just go ahead and do it now.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago>But this is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. Is this sort of behavior what we'd like to condone? I mean you even admit that its business practices are sometimes exploitative and that's what? How we're supposed to do things? "Grey-area" is a pretty large understatement as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_action... >There was literally nothing wrong with the email 4) Do not have sex with another employee UNLESS a) you have asked that person for that privilege and they have responded with an emphatic "YES! I will have sex with you" AND b) the two (or more) of you do not work in the same chain of command. Yes, that means that Travis will be celibate on this trip. #CEOLife #FML How do you not see the problem with this? Travis is a full-grown adult, he's not even some kid fresh out of college and this is the culture he's setting? We've already seen the results of this culture through Susan Fowler and others. >Uber is a cultural phenomenon that arguably has more longevity than something like Facebook. Well first it needs to run a profit... >I just think he's been treated unfairly because of his playboy flair, but he's actually a pretty smart, ruthless business leader. Even this story tries hard to dehumanize him Travis is the worst vision of this sort of techno-utopian capitalism. He's a billionaire running a company which can't make a profit. A business which breaks the laws in almost every country it enters, which doesn't seek to even understand why the regulation it is breaking exists in the first place. He runs the company like a frat house. This company also has two viable paths to profit: 1) Become a monopoly and raise prices. 2) Automate his employees (drivers) away. You're right, Travis has been ruthless so I'm not so sure why we need to put on the kid gloves when we talk about him or his company.
- samfisher83 9y agoHe is telling people not rape people and not have sex with your subordinates. It seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe the wording could be better, but it isn't too scandalous.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
- rising-sky 9y agoJust because someone is "really smart" does not give them license to be "really dumb" when it comes to enabling an inclusive culture, in a company where they have the responsibility of being it's CEO: vis-a-viz, being responsible for the company's employees. He facilitated a workplace culture that, whether my omission or commission, was toxic for some of the people who worked there. Even if that was 0.001% and he wasn't demonstrably trying to bring that number down, he failed. Being a CEO is not "just" about bringing in profits at any cost, including that of the welfare of the employees.
- chasing 9y ago> But this [grey-area, sometimes exploitative] is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. No, no it's not. > This is exactly how FB started out. People keep comparing Uber to Facebook. "Facebook acted shitty, therefore acting shitty is part of the recipe for a successful startup." It's not. In fact, your comment is evidence of how destructive some of this unethical behavior can be: It can directly influence future founders and give them a pass on their own unethical and shitty behavior. "Facebook did it, so it must be okay." "Uber did it -- it's just part of how startups work." But it's not.
- BinaryIdiot 9y agoWhile I do think you have a point regarding how the company is run in a general sense like most start-ups should run (at least according to the ethos on HN), you're down playing the sexual harassment and culture issues by an incredible margin.
- barleyworth 9y ago> There was literally nothing wrong with the email There were at least two things wrong with the email, from my perspective as a guy who's been around plenty of benign bro culture. 1. Explicitly mentioning "sex" as opposed to "relationship" or "dating", and talking about it so casually, sets a very aggressive tone. 20-something guys with lots of hormones will definitely hear that tone and push hard for sex during the trip (the implication is that there will be lots of it, and nobody wants to be left out). Females reading this surely know that they'll receive lots of attention and advances during the trip, whether they want it or not – even if you assume that the guys will be asking for consent, it's still uncomfortable for those who want to be professional and avoid work relationships. 2. "Yes, that means that Travis will be celibate on this trip. #CEOLife #FML." Implication there is that there are many people on the team that the Travis wants to sleep with. If you're a female subordinate of the CEO whom he speaks with somewhat flirtily, you can infer that he's thinking "FML, I wish I could sleep with her".
- acchow 9y agoWhy do you talk about females like they are precious snowflakes?
- gammarator 9y agoWhy do you talk about "females?" The word you are looking for is "women." ("Females" connotes reproductive capacity [1], which is seldom relevant, and is also applied to animals. "Women" are human beings.) [1] http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#eid http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/69157?redirectedFrom=female#ei...
- jpster 9y agoI have been noticing more and more people using "female" as opposed to "woman". (They never seem to substitute "male" for men.) Thank you for articulating this.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> "Females" connotes reproductive capacity Almost all bees are females. Almost all of those lack reproductive capacity. "Female", either as noun or an adjective, neither denotes nor connotes reproductive capacity, though it may connote reproductive role (though even then, only as an adjective modifying a species or some similar classification, because reproductive roles vary.) It's use as a noun for a human is seen by some as divisive (compared to an adjective modifying "person") or dehumanizing (compared to "woman or girl"); OTOH, it is seen by others as less awkward than either of those constructions and more accurate when the intebt is not age-specific (thus, making neither "woman" nor "girl" alone appropriate) than any similarly-concise expression.
- amrrs 9y agoPeople who love iPhone never hesitate to call Jobs a ruthless leader. We as a community are only interested in the benefits while insanely criticising the primary causal factor of it. Same goes with everything abt Travis. He made his mistakes. No cover up in it. But that doesn't mean he's inherently bad or unqualified. Had it been someone else, Taxi industry wouldn't have disrupted. We enjoy the luxury of travelling in Uber or Ola or Lyft which is fundamentally the problem solved by Travis, that's a long forgotten fact. This is again not an excuse for his mistakes but he's been over cut and over punished.
- AJ007 9y agoI am doubtful nice, rule following Uber would have ever been able to break in to the markets they did. There are good examples here and bad ones. We've seen a few bad ones where startup founders do crazy stuff and end up in prison (and a few I suspect will be headed that way.) Whatever Uber did right and wrong, make sure you learn the correct lessons and not the wrong ones.
- metaphorm 9y agoI don't think there's anything gray about a car service booking app. The gray area is Uber's deliberate pushing of legal boundaries and using skechy business practices. Lyft is in the same business and has not become infamous for this kind of thing. They are fairly successful too, even if they are (for now) 2nd place behind Uber. In New York City anyway almost all the drivers are using multiple services anyway so it makes very little difference (in this market). So why is it that other businesses doing exactly the same thing Uber is doing are able to do it successfully without the legal and cultural issues?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- shas3 9y agoEh? He and others were looking at a rape victim's medical records, apparently with the conviction that she was making it up and was paid by their competitor to smear them. If that doesn't raise concerns about the company's culture, I don't know what will. There are few precedents for such shitty conduct in the 21st century corporate world.
- Florin_Andrei 9y ago> I don't really understand why. When something like this happens, it's because the story runs counter to the listener's / reader's deepest assumptions and the foundations of their Weltanschauung. E.g., you're a deeply religious conservative, and you hear a story about a gay couple who are great parents, you block it out. You're a Democrat and you hear about Hillary making millions from speeches to Wall Street tycoons, you block it out. You're a MAGA type of person, and you hear anything negative about Trump, you block it out. You bite hook, line and sinker into the whole free market thing, Ayn Rand for the win, and you hear anything bad about some entrepreneur who made a fortune, you block it out - you ain't got no time for that, cause you've got empires to build. --- What we do not perceive says more about us than what we do perceive.
- resu_nimda 9y agoBut this is exactly how you're supposed to run a massively successful startup in its first decade. This is exactly how FB started out. And this follows every rule in the startup book to a tee. None of these things are even remotely true. Uber is treated the way it is because the Uber culture and ethos have been uniquely shitty among startup unicorns/tech giants. At this point, I grant you that it's become an overblown witch hunt, but this developed over the course of years. Travis had every opportunity to see the reputation they were building, and he didn't give a shit, so now this is what happens.
- dullgiulio 9y agoWell said. I remember when Zuckerberg declared that privacy was a thing of the past. Now Facebook offers the Privacy Checkup once per month, at least. Everyone kept complaining that drivers were being paid nuts and what did Uber do? Started arbitraging between riders and drivers to get even more out of every ride. Also, the parent says "successful startup [...] first decade." What is a valid definition of startup? Is Uber starting-up forever?
- majani 9y agoGiant freelance marketplaces tend to be lightning rods for outrage largely because of their tendency to directly drive down wages. Search this site for any of the large developer marketplaces and you'll be hard pressed to find a kind word being said about them. This effect automatically creates a sizeable constituency hell bent on exposing your wrongs and it's downhill from there from a PR perspective.
- digitaltrees 9y agoHonestly, I think this has more to do with Uber's inability to become profitable than genuine concern for these problems. People have know about these problems but ignored them for exactly the reasons you describe. I'd say the investigation is almost a pretext.
- censoredforlife 9y agoI am with you. I see nothing wrong with this email either. People fuck! Looks like it offended a bunch of regressive men and women.