7 ms·

I couldn't agree more with this. As a liberal gun owner I've often thought that some sort of class for other progressives on gun safety, gun history and gun cul

by rhcom2 9y ago

I couldn't agree more with this. As a liberal gun owner I've often thought that some sort of class for other progressives on gun safety, gun history and gun culture would lead to better and effective gun laws. Yeah 50 caliber sniper rifles, fully auto machine guns and AR-15s look and sound scary... but when it comes to gun crime in this country they're a drop in the bucket compared to hand guns.

mi100hael 9y ago
> Yeah 50 caliber sniper rifles, fully auto machine guns and AR-15s look and sound scary... The word you are looking for is "awesome"
- cmyr 9y ago
  I'm curious about how you think about your feelings here. What do you think makes these things seem 'awesome', to you? When I was a kid, I definitely thought that guns were 'cool', in some sense. I thought about them, I read about them, and I desired access to them. As I grew up and came to understand that (in the general case, and certainly for hand guns and the stuff mentioned above) guns are tools designed to end human lives, it became very hard for me to see them as anything more than a tragic symbol of human littleness. What does 'awesome' mean, to you? Does it mean that they are symbols of power? Something else?
  - cgmg 9y ago
    Awesome: extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear. It's the same feeling you get when you watch explosions on MythBusters and such. Do explosions kill people? Yes. But they're pretty damn awesome when they don't.
  - madengr 9y ago
    Awesome = fun to shoot. I have a 50 BMG and multiple black rifles. The only reason I don't have full auto is they are too expensive, but I have shot them many times.
    - ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
      >> The only reason I don't have full auto is they are too expensive ...not to mention illegal
      - rhcom2 9y ago
        They're actually not completely illegal. You need an NFA stamp for things like full automatic rifles, machine guns, most silencers, short barreled guns, and the stamps are often very expensive. Which is why you probably don't see many full automatic AKs being used in crime.
      - madengr 9y ago
        They are not in most US states. Not federally as long as they were manufactured prior to 1987. That's what makes them expensive; limited supply. Here is a class I took on the MP5: https://youtu.be/Vr8G0uXf19A https://youtu.be/Vr8G0uXf19A
    - komali2 9y ago
      Can't reply to child comment that says automatic weapons are illegal. Kind of silly to say that on the internet - the OP could be in a country where they are not, or where the concept of "illegal" is ill-defined or irrelevant.
  - ufmace 9y ago
    Think about the "designed to end human lives" a little more. What's really designed to end lives is a gallows, an electric chair, gas chamber, etc. Guns are designed for combat, not just killing. And not just any combat. The strong and numerous attackers don't really need better tools for hurting the small, lone, and weak; they can do that just fine already. Guns are for the weak to defend themselves against the strong. They let the little old lady stop multiple attackers. They let the lone rebel fight back against the oppressive government. The gun is civilization and democracy.
    - likeclockwork 9y ago
      Insurgents repelling democracy-spreading invaders.
  - cestith 9y ago
    When I was growing up, rifles and shotguns were used to put meat on the table all winter. No, I'm not that old. Getting a deer or two for the cost of ammunition and butchering is a lot cheaper than getting a side of beef for the freezer. It's also a generations-long shared hobby and ritual that members of the family go hunting and fishing together. That's a far cry from ending human life. It's sustaining human life and culture. Speaking of culture, how dare you judge mine so harshly from yours?
coredog64 9y ago
I'm always shocked and amazed that progressives rail against "abstinence only" sex ed and then turn around and promote the same thing for firearms.
- theptip 9y ago
  So by your argument, we should allow private citizens to own surface-to-air missiles, artillery cannons, landmines, chemical weapons, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons, because abstinence from weapon ownership doesn't work? Or is it more complicated than "abstinence"? (I'd argue that it is. There is no biological drive to own a gun, just a socially constructed one. It's a different category of activity.)
  - Programmatic 9y ago
    > There is no biological drive to own a gun, just a socially constructed one. I'm not going to argue that a gun is the only or even necessarily an appreciable way to advance this in most individuals, but for many people it likely does work into this biological need: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#Safety_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#...
    - theptip 9y ago
      Sure, to unpack the intent of my original sentence a bit more: In some societies, such as the US, the biological need for security is met by the socially acceptable practice of gun ownership. In other societies, it is not socially acceptable to meet that biological need with the practice of gun ownership.
  - kej 9y ago
    Just to quibble with your last point, I think it would be reasonable to say humans have a biological predisposition to use tools and to defend themselves. I know I have a very primal urge to protect my young children; I could see how that could manifest in someone else as wanting to own a gun to protect one's family.

by rhcom2 9y ago

mi100hael 9y ago

> Yeah 50 caliber sniper rifles, fully auto machine guns and AR-15s look and sound scary... The word you are looking for is "awesome"

cmyr 9y ago
I'm curious about how you think about your feelings here. What do you think makes these things seem 'awesome', to you? When I was a kid, I definitely thought that guns were 'cool', in some sense. I thought about them, I read about them, and I desired access to them. As I grew up and came to understand that (in the general case, and certainly for hand guns and the stuff mentioned above) guns are tools designed to end human lives, it became very hard for me to see them as anything more than a tragic symbol of human littleness. What does 'awesome' mean, to you? Does it mean that they are symbols of power? Something else?
- cgmg 9y ago
  Awesome: extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear. It's the same feeling you get when you watch explosions on MythBusters and such. Do explosions kill people? Yes. But they're pretty damn awesome when they don't.
- madengr 9y ago
  Awesome = fun to shoot. I have a 50 BMG and multiple black rifles. The only reason I don't have full auto is they are too expensive, but I have shot them many times.
  - ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
    >> The only reason I don't have full auto is they are too expensive ...not to mention illegal
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      They're actually not completely illegal. You need an NFA stamp for things like full automatic rifles, machine guns, most silencers, short barreled guns, and the stamps are often very expensive. Which is why you probably don't see many full automatic AKs being used in crime.
    - madengr 9y ago
      They are not in most US states. Not federally as long as they were manufactured prior to 1987. That's what makes them expensive; limited supply. Here is a class I took on the MP5: https://youtu.be/Vr8G0uXf19A https://youtu.be/Vr8G0uXf19A
  - komali2 9y ago
    Can't reply to child comment that says automatic weapons are illegal. Kind of silly to say that on the internet - the OP could be in a country where they are not, or where the concept of "illegal" is ill-defined or irrelevant.
- ufmace 9y ago
  Think about the "designed to end human lives" a little more. What's really designed to end lives is a gallows, an electric chair, gas chamber, etc. Guns are designed for combat, not just killing. And not just any combat. The strong and numerous attackers don't really need better tools for hurting the small, lone, and weak; they can do that just fine already. Guns are for the weak to defend themselves against the strong. They let the little old lady stop multiple attackers. They let the lone rebel fight back against the oppressive government. The gun is civilization and democracy.
  - likeclockwork 9y ago
    Insurgents repelling democracy-spreading invaders.
- cestith 9y ago
  When I was growing up, rifles and shotguns were used to put meat on the table all winter. No, I'm not that old. Getting a deer or two for the cost of ammunition and butchering is a lot cheaper than getting a side of beef for the freezer. It's also a generations-long shared hobby and ritual that members of the family go hunting and fishing together. That's a far cry from ending human life. It's sustaining human life and culture. Speaking of culture, how dare you judge mine so harshly from yours?

coredog64 9y ago

I'm always shocked and amazed that progressives rail against "abstinence only" sex ed and then turn around and promote the same thing for firearms.

theptip 9y ago
So by your argument, we should allow private citizens to own surface-to-air missiles, artillery cannons, landmines, chemical weapons, biological weapons, and nuclear weapons, because abstinence from weapon ownership doesn't work? Or is it more complicated than "abstinence"? (I'd argue that it is. There is no biological drive to own a gun, just a socially constructed one. It's a different category of activity.)
- Programmatic 9y ago
  > There is no biological drive to own a gun, just a socially constructed one. I'm not going to argue that a gun is the only or even necessarily an appreciable way to advance this in most individuals, but for many people it likely does work into this biological need: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#Safety_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#...
  - theptip 9y ago
    Sure, to unpack the intent of my original sentence a bit more: In some societies, such as the US, the biological need for security is met by the socially acceptable practice of gun ownership. In other societies, it is not socially acceptable to meet that biological need with the practice of gun ownership.
- kej 9y ago
  Just to quibble with your last point, I think it would be reasonable to say humans have a biological predisposition to use tools and to defend themselves. I know I have a very primal urge to protect my young children; I could see how that could manifest in someone else as wanting to own a gun to protect one's family.