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And you absolutely don't have the right to threaten me with violence and harm with the aim of blocking me from inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my

And you absolutely don't have the right to threaten me with violence and harm with the aim of blocking me from inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property -- which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. Simply because you belong to a majority (or minority) of the citizens of my country, does not give you the right to dictate who I can hire, who I can invite into my home, etc. For libertarian arguments underpinning this fundamentally moral and human rights issue, see https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/

jimmyk 9y ago
>And you absolutely don't have the right That's true according to some moral systems and not true according to others. What's more important is that we have the power to do so, and we think it's in our interest to do so, so we do it. If you want to convince us not to restrict immigration, you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so. Saying we're immoral according to your chosen moral system will persuade some, and it will be easily rebuked some others, but most will say "It doesn't feel wrong" and ignore you and your whole moral system. >inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property -- which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. That's not really the important status quo of today, though. The problem isn't that people are inviting their non-citizen friends into their homes. It's that some non-citizens are coming here and consuming limited resources that would otherwise be consumed by citizens, especially services funded by taxpayers, and are not providing enough services to the people here to make up for what they're consuming. Many citizens, especially those who are in most direct economic competition with immigrants, are made worse off by the presence of even those who do provide more resources than they consume. The gains they provide are not distributed evenly throughout the population, and neither are the costs they impose.
- winter_blue 9y ago
  This is a debate about morality, but one with real world consequences. I strongly believe some moral systems are superior to others. In the moral system of the mid-19th century U.S. South, it was moral and right to have slaves. Human beings could be property. Similarly, in the communist and some socialist moral systems, it is evil and immoral for me to, say, start a company, and make millions of dollars of wealth. I have to share the fruit of my labor with other citizens of my country who did not work hard, and who might have spent the time I was toiling on my startup, playing video games and watching Netflix. > you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so Absolutely not. As long as your self-interest doesn't violate the rights of others, I fully respect. But the moment you want to oppress my freedom, for the sake of your self-interest, I say fuck you self-interest. I don't need to convince you of anything. Why? * Your same repugnant self-interest argument was used by slave owners. It wasn't in their self-interest to lose their free labor. It was economic disaster to relinquish slave labor. To quote, the Mississippi Declaration of Secession, it was "the greatest material interest of the world", c.f. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp * You have no right to dictate to me that I can only associate with you (i.e. whether in employment, friendship, marriage etc). I should be free to hire any one from any country as I see fit. Immigration restrictions are oppressive and immoral, c.f. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/ * If I started a company, and made large amounts of money, and you decided to play video games and watch Netflix all day long while I toiled day and night, then you have no fucking moral right to live on money stolen by taxing the income of hard-working people like myself. Frankly, I am under no obligation to convince you that you should not oppress my freedom, and threaten me with violence, to further your self-interest. I believe in absolute objective morality. I don't think there are multiple "fair/just" moral frameworks. I reject the moral framework that upholds slavery. I think communist (and some socialist) moral systems are evil and wrong. Similarly, I think the immigration laws of most countries in the world are objectively immoral, evil, and wrong. Try to live without violating the rights and freedoms of the others. Thanks.
  - jimmyk 9y ago
    >I strongly believe some moral systems are superior to others. What experiment can you perform to decide if a moral system is superior to another? >In the moral system What is your point? Are you listing examples where you expect me to sympathize with you and therefore agree? How does my own sympathy for your position prove that those moral systems are inferior to others? What does that even mean? >But the moment you want to oppress my freedom, for the sake of your self-interest, I say fuck you self-interest. Yes, and we say fuck what you think is your freedom, except we're powerful enough to actually get what we want. >I don't need to convince you of anything. Why? Because it sounds like you want us to change the way we're behaving, and you don't have the physical power to make us. Moral arguments will work on people that are already sympathetic to you, and people whose interests are pretty well aligned with what your moral system prescribes. They don't work so well on people whose interests would be seriously harmed by following them. >Your same repugnant I'll save you some time typing: I don't care if you call me repugnant. I don't care if you call me the worst names out there. It's not an argument. It's not going to convince me of anything except that you don't have an argument. >self-interest argument was used by slave owners Yes, it was, and so they did it until someone more powerful made them stop. >You have no right to dictate to me that I can only associate with you I don't care if your moral system says I do or don't have a right to dictate such to you. >I should be free to hire any one from any country as I see fit. That's your opinion, not an argument. >Immigration restrictions are oppressive and immoral Oppressive? I guess you could make an argument like that if you defined oppressive in a certain way. Either way, I think they're in my interest. Immoral? That's a matter of opinion. >If I started a company, and made large amounts of money, and you decided to play video games and watch Netflix all day long while I toiled day and night, then you have no fucking moral right to live on money stolen by taxing the income of hard-working people like myself. Another matter of opinion. >Frankly, I am under no obligation to convince you that you should not oppress my freedom, and threaten me with violence, to further your self-interest. The only obligation would be a self-imposed one. If you want very badly to get what you want, and are not powerful enough to make it so, then you have no choice but to convince those that are powerful enough. That's reality. >I believe in absolute objective morality. What is an example of a hypothesis that you can test to determine if something is absolutely objectively moral? How can you test it? What useful information can I get out of such a test? Can I use the result to make a prediction, like in science? >I don't think there are multiple "fair/just" moral frameworks. There are certainly multiple moral frameworks. They mostly consider the others unjust in various ways. >Try to live without violating the rights and freedoms of the others. Why should I choose to honor the rights and freedoms which are specified by your moral system rather than the rights and freedoms specified by some other arbitrarily chosen moral system?
- winter_blue 9y ago
  > That's not really the important status quo of today, though. On this point, you need to educate yourself more. It's cleared you've consumed the lies of right new media outlets. Immigrants contribute a lot more than they consume. See the National Academy of Sciences report[1], or read some articles from the Cato Institute, or even the short summary of the Libertarian Party's position[3]. The problem is that this country's laws hate and despise skilled and educated immigrants. My company tried for two years in a row, to bring a developer from our Paris office over into the US. A brilliant developer, who had been with us for a year, and proven himself. Someone who had graduated from EPFL (one of the best higher-education institutes in Europe -- the equivalent of CMU/MIT here). Someone who was being offered a $140,000/year base salary. Someone who spoke fluent English. And he was rejected (lost the H1B lottery) twice, thanks to the US skilled immigration policy. That is the status quo today. Which is a far cry from what is morally right. I don't think even a preference system for educated/skilled immigrants is morally right. The only morally righteous immigration system is one that permits the free immigration of people that are peaceful/non-voilent and who are self-sufficient/self-reliant (i.e. they'll have no access to welfare, and must be able to support themselves). [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-co... [2] https://www.cato.org/research/immigration https://www.cato.org/research/immigration [3] https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/ https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/
  - jimmyk 9y ago
    >Immigrants contribute a lot more than they consume. Some do. Many don't. And even among those that do contribute more than they consume, it seems very unlikely that the contributions and the drawbacks would be distributed evenly throughout the population. Some people will be made better off by their presence, and others (perhaps even a greater number, but totaling a smaller dollar value) will be made worse off. Do you disagree with that? >The problem is that this country's laws hate and despise skilled and educated immigrants. I don't lock my doors because I hate the people outside. I lock my doors because I want to protect the people inside. >And he was rejected (lost the H1B lottery) twice, thanks to the US skilled immigration policy. Right, but do you deny that many companies make enormous amounts of money off of the H1B programs and that they can bring down salaries of the local people that compete with their labor? Do you deny that people that come in via H1B are less likely to have loyalty to this country and its people? >Which is a far cry from what is morally right. Whether it's morally right or not depends on what moral system you're using to evaluate it. I can pick one that says what I want just as easily as you can. >people that are peaceful/non-voilent How do you know their descendants will be peaceful and non-violent, and that their interests and those of their descendants will tightly overlap with the interests of the current population and their descendants? Why would the current inhabitants want to let people in if they don't have strong reason to believe that the interests of the immigrants and their descendants will strongly align with the interests of the current inhabitants and their descendants?
vetinari 9y ago
> And you absolutely don't have the right to threaten me with violence and harm with the aim of blocking me from inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property I'm not. The sovereign is. By the definition, the monopoly to use the violence belongs to the sovereign, which in this age is in a form of a democracy or republic. For you that means, that the majority of your co-citizens decided on some rules and if you break them, yes, violence may ensue, until you stop breaking them. > which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. As you were told in the sibling comment, your moral system and moral systems of others may be different. > Simply because you belong to a majority (or minority) of the citizens of my country, does not give you the right to dictate Yes, the majority has that rights. Again, the common name for that is democracy. If you do not agree, use the first three of four boxes of liberty. > who I can hire, The majority definitely has this right. The labor market doesn't belong to you, you just participate there. > who I can invite into my home, etc. Fortunately for you, the majority in most countries consider tourism to be a good thing, where just the security of the others need to be taken care of. Tourist tend not to use social security, health care or other services, that were funded by your co-citizens and not your guests. > For libertarian arguments underpinning this fundamentally moral and human rights issue Libertarianism is just one of many ideologies in this world. It doesn't have a status of the only truth. Other ideologies or world-views have their own arguments. Here I return to one of the box of liberty mentioned above, soapbox. For communication and discussion it is important not only to present your arguments, but also listen to the arguments of the others, who you might not agree with, and correctly embed their points and worries into your position. If you do not, it's you who will get ignored, as there would be no point of discussion.
- winter_blue 9y ago
  > Yes, the majority has that rights. Again, the common name for that is democracy. I believe individual rights and human rights are supreme. I don't believe a majority, or a democratically elected sovereign, has the right to curtail the freedoms and rights of individuals. That's what being discussed here. By your moral framework, the German people, who elected Hitler into power, had every right in the world, to murder and slaughter millions of Jews, Roma, Slavs/Poles, and others. What a terrible moral framework. > who I can hire No, restricting who I can engage in commerce with, or really any sort of interpersonal relationship, is a violation of my freedom. I believe people are free to engage in any form of human interaction with others, as they see fit. You have no fucking right to dictate who I decide to be friends with, hire, etc. > ... one of many ideologies in this world. It doesn't have a status of the only truth ... I'll just point you to my other comment for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545935 > For you that means, that the majority of your co-citizens decided on some rules and if you break them, yes, violence may ensue, until you stop breaking them. Suppose, I lived in the mid-1800s, and the majority of my co-citizens decided to pass the Fugitive Slave Act. I am against slavery, and I believed that that law was immoral, reprehensible, and wrong. What do I do? Comply with law? Fuck that. I would have fought against it, with violence, if necessary. All I'm asking for is that you respect basic human rights, nothing more. If you can't do that, honestly, I am justified in using violence against you, to defend myself against your acts of violence against me.

jimmyk 9y ago

>And you absolutely don't have the right That's true according to some moral systems and not true according to others. What's more important is that we have the power to do so, and we think it's in our interest to do so, so we do it. If you want to convince us not to restrict immigration, you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so. Saying we're immoral according to your chosen moral system will persuade some, and it will be easily rebuked some others, but most will say "It doesn't feel wrong" and ignore you and your whole moral system. >inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property -- which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. That's not really the important status quo of today, though. The problem isn't that people are inviting their non-citizen friends into their homes. It's that some non-citizens are coming here and consuming limited resources that would otherwise be consumed by citizens, especially services funded by taxpayers, and are not providing enough services to the people here to make up for what they're consuming. Many citizens, especially those who are in most direct economic competition with immigrants, are made worse off by the presence of even those who do provide more resources than they consume. The gains they provide are not distributed evenly throughout the population, and neither are the costs they impose.

winter_blue 9y ago
This is a debate about morality, but one with real world consequences. I strongly believe some moral systems are superior to others. In the moral system of the mid-19th century U.S. South, it was moral and right to have slaves. Human beings could be property. Similarly, in the communist and some socialist moral systems, it is evil and immoral for me to, say, start a company, and make millions of dollars of wealth. I have to share the fruit of my labor with other citizens of my country who did not work hard, and who might have spent the time I was toiling on my startup, playing video games and watching Netflix. > you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so Absolutely not. As long as your self-interest doesn't violate the rights of others, I fully respect. But the moment you want to oppress my freedom, for the sake of your self-interest, I say fuck you self-interest. I don't need to convince you of anything. Why? * Your same repugnant self-interest argument was used by slave owners. It wasn't in their self-interest to lose their free labor. It was economic disaster to relinquish slave labor. To quote, the Mississippi Declaration of Secession, it was "the greatest material interest of the world", c.f. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp * You have no right to dictate to me that I can only associate with you (i.e. whether in employment, friendship, marriage etc). I should be free to hire any one from any country as I see fit. Immigration restrictions are oppressive and immoral, c.f. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/ * If I started a company, and made large amounts of money, and you decided to play video games and watch Netflix all day long while I toiled day and night, then you have no fucking moral right to live on money stolen by taxing the income of hard-working people like myself. Frankly, I am under no obligation to convince you that you should not oppress my freedom, and threaten me with violence, to further your self-interest. I believe in absolute objective morality. I don't think there are multiple "fair/just" moral frameworks. I reject the moral framework that upholds slavery. I think communist (and some socialist) moral systems are evil and wrong. Similarly, I think the immigration laws of most countries in the world are objectively immoral, evil, and wrong. Try to live without violating the rights and freedoms of the others. Thanks.
- jimmyk 9y ago
  >I strongly believe some moral systems are superior to others. What experiment can you perform to decide if a moral system is superior to another? >In the moral system What is your point? Are you listing examples where you expect me to sympathize with you and therefore agree? How does my own sympathy for your position prove that those moral systems are inferior to others? What does that even mean? >But the moment you want to oppress my freedom, for the sake of your self-interest, I say fuck you self-interest. Yes, and we say fuck what you think is your freedom, except we're powerful enough to actually get what we want. >I don't need to convince you of anything. Why? Because it sounds like you want us to change the way we're behaving, and you don't have the physical power to make us. Moral arguments will work on people that are already sympathetic to you, and people whose interests are pretty well aligned with what your moral system prescribes. They don't work so well on people whose interests would be seriously harmed by following them. >Your same repugnant I'll save you some time typing: I don't care if you call me repugnant. I don't care if you call me the worst names out there. It's not an argument. It's not going to convince me of anything except that you don't have an argument. >self-interest argument was used by slave owners Yes, it was, and so they did it until someone more powerful made them stop. >You have no right to dictate to me that I can only associate with you I don't care if your moral system says I do or don't have a right to dictate such to you. >I should be free to hire any one from any country as I see fit. That's your opinion, not an argument. >Immigration restrictions are oppressive and immoral Oppressive? I guess you could make an argument like that if you defined oppressive in a certain way. Either way, I think they're in my interest. Immoral? That's a matter of opinion. >If I started a company, and made large amounts of money, and you decided to play video games and watch Netflix all day long while I toiled day and night, then you have no fucking moral right to live on money stolen by taxing the income of hard-working people like myself. Another matter of opinion. >Frankly, I am under no obligation to convince you that you should not oppress my freedom, and threaten me with violence, to further your self-interest. The only obligation would be a self-imposed one. If you want very badly to get what you want, and are not powerful enough to make it so, then you have no choice but to convince those that are powerful enough. That's reality. >I believe in absolute objective morality. What is an example of a hypothesis that you can test to determine if something is absolutely objectively moral? How can you test it? What useful information can I get out of such a test? Can I use the result to make a prediction, like in science? >I don't think there are multiple "fair/just" moral frameworks. There are certainly multiple moral frameworks. They mostly consider the others unjust in various ways. >Try to live without violating the rights and freedoms of the others. Why should I choose to honor the rights and freedoms which are specified by your moral system rather than the rights and freedoms specified by some other arbitrarily chosen moral system?
winter_blue 9y ago
> That's not really the important status quo of today, though. On this point, you need to educate yourself more. It's cleared you've consumed the lies of right new media outlets. Immigrants contribute a lot more than they consume. See the National Academy of Sciences report[1], or read some articles from the Cato Institute, or even the short summary of the Libertarian Party's position[3]. The problem is that this country's laws hate and despise skilled and educated immigrants. My company tried for two years in a row, to bring a developer from our Paris office over into the US. A brilliant developer, who had been with us for a year, and proven himself. Someone who had graduated from EPFL (one of the best higher-education institutes in Europe -- the equivalent of CMU/MIT here). Someone who was being offered a $140,000/year base salary. Someone who spoke fluent English. And he was rejected (lost the H1B lottery) twice, thanks to the US skilled immigration policy. That is the status quo today. Which is a far cry from what is morally right. I don't think even a preference system for educated/skilled immigrants is morally right. The only morally righteous immigration system is one that permits the free immigration of people that are peaceful/non-voilent and who are self-sufficient/self-reliant (i.e. they'll have no access to welfare, and must be able to support themselves). [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-co... [2] https://www.cato.org/research/immigration https://www.cato.org/research/immigration [3] https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/ https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/
- jimmyk 9y ago
  >Immigrants contribute a lot more than they consume. Some do. Many don't. And even among those that do contribute more than they consume, it seems very unlikely that the contributions and the drawbacks would be distributed evenly throughout the population. Some people will be made better off by their presence, and others (perhaps even a greater number, but totaling a smaller dollar value) will be made worse off. Do you disagree with that? >The problem is that this country's laws hate and despise skilled and educated immigrants. I don't lock my doors because I hate the people outside. I lock my doors because I want to protect the people inside. >And he was rejected (lost the H1B lottery) twice, thanks to the US skilled immigration policy. Right, but do you deny that many companies make enormous amounts of money off of the H1B programs and that they can bring down salaries of the local people that compete with their labor? Do you deny that people that come in via H1B are less likely to have loyalty to this country and its people? >Which is a far cry from what is morally right. Whether it's morally right or not depends on what moral system you're using to evaluate it. I can pick one that says what I want just as easily as you can. >people that are peaceful/non-voilent How do you know their descendants will be peaceful and non-violent, and that their interests and those of their descendants will tightly overlap with the interests of the current population and their descendants? Why would the current inhabitants want to let people in if they don't have strong reason to believe that the interests of the immigrants and their descendants will strongly align with the interests of the current inhabitants and their descendants?

vetinari 9y ago

> And you absolutely don't have the right to threaten me with violence and harm with the aim of blocking me from inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property I'm not. The sovereign is. By the definition, the monopoly to use the violence belongs to the sovereign, which in this age is in a form of a democracy or republic. For you that means, that the majority of your co-citizens decided on some rules and if you break them, yes, violence may ensue, until you stop breaking them. > which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. As you were told in the sibling comment, your moral system and moral systems of others may be different. > Simply because you belong to a majority (or minority) of the citizens of my country, does not give you the right to dictate Yes, the majority has that rights. Again, the common name for that is democracy. If you do not agree, use the first three of four boxes of liberty. > who I can hire, The majority definitely has this right. The labor market doesn't belong to you, you just participate there. > who I can invite into my home, etc. Fortunately for you, the majority in most countries consider tourism to be a good thing, where just the security of the others need to be taken care of. Tourist tend not to use social security, health care or other services, that were funded by your co-citizens and not your guests. > For libertarian arguments underpinning this fundamentally moral and human rights issue Libertarianism is just one of many ideologies in this world. It doesn't have a status of the only truth. Other ideologies or world-views have their own arguments. Here I return to one of the box of liberty mentioned above, soapbox. For communication and discussion it is important not only to present your arguments, but also listen to the arguments of the others, who you might not agree with, and correctly embed their points and worries into your position. If you do not, it's you who will get ignored, as there would be no point of discussion.

winter_blue 9y ago
> Yes, the majority has that rights. Again, the common name for that is democracy. I believe individual rights and human rights are supreme. I don't believe a majority, or a democratically elected sovereign, has the right to curtail the freedoms and rights of individuals. That's what being discussed here. By your moral framework, the German people, who elected Hitler into power, had every right in the world, to murder and slaughter millions of Jews, Roma, Slavs/Poles, and others. What a terrible moral framework. > who I can hire No, restricting who I can engage in commerce with, or really any sort of interpersonal relationship, is a violation of my freedom. I believe people are free to engage in any form of human interaction with others, as they see fit. You have no fucking right to dictate who I decide to be friends with, hire, etc. > ... one of many ideologies in this world. It doesn't have a status of the only truth ... I'll just point you to my other comment for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14545935 > For you that means, that the majority of your co-citizens decided on some rules and if you break them, yes, violence may ensue, until you stop breaking them. Suppose, I lived in the mid-1800s, and the majority of my co-citizens decided to pass the Fugitive Slave Act. I am against slavery, and I believed that that law was immoral, reprehensible, and wrong. What do I do? Comply with law? Fuck that. I would have fought against it, with violence, if necessary. All I'm asking for is that you respect basic human rights, nothing more. If you can't do that, honestly, I am justified in using violence against you, to defend myself against your acts of violence against me.