8 ms·

The complexity of German taxes and all the other red tape seems to be the main reason why people change their mind about starting up in Berlin but, personally,

The complexity of German taxes and all the other red tape seems to be the main reason why people change their mind about starting up in Berlin but, personally, it was the rudeness that wore me down. Berliners can be very nice in certain situations, such as the people you work with, but they have a hostile service culture. Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland. The other problem is that many Berliners regard young foreign workers as being the reason why rents are increasing and this became a political issue a few years ago. I'm not sure what the current situation is but, at that time, you would see graffiti around town, letting you know that you were not welcome, and you would frequently hear the same sentiment expressed in social situations. Ironically, the people who were quickest to let you know that the foreign tech workers were not welcome were the same "anti-fascist" trendies who call everyone else racist. This hostility wasn't something I experienced when living in other German cities, it seems to be a Berlin-specific phenomenon.

shostack 9y ago
>"Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland." Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?
- sedachv 9y ago
  Many European cultures consider the inauthentic cheerfulness that is expected as part of emotional labor in Anglophone societies distasteful (I have been living in North America for many years, and still find it distasteful), and workers in those cultures rightly recognize these demands for emotional labor as being harmful to their mental health (see for example Hochschild's seminal The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling).
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    What makes you think that the cheerfulness is "inauthentic"? Some people actually do genuinely like other people and enjoy helping them. That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering.
    - sedachv 9y ago
      > That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering. As would one's inability to understand eye contact and body language.
      - Turing_Machine 9y ago
        Body language and eye contact protocols differ between cultures. A lot. Have you considered the possibility that you are presenting yourself as what they see as rude and unfriendly, thus leading them to be uncomfortable while serving you?
        sedachv 9y ago
        Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people? For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either. On the other hand I usually have pleasant interactions with workers, and I also do not go around complaining when I receive less than enthusiastic service. One of the manners that helps in having pleasant interactions is avoiding giving strangers unsolicited advice, about their behavior or otherwise.
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        "Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people?" Well, we have two alternatives here: 1) A person who grew up in a culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture. 2) Someone who grew up in a totally different culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture. Now, which of those two seems more likely to you? "For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either." Oh, I got that. I was just attempting to be polite by ignoring you being a jerk. Maybe someone is forcing me to do "unpaid emotional labor" or something. Once again: it's not them. It's you.
- thenaturalist 9y ago
  Putting in my two cents as a German living in Berlin: it's a cultural thing. There is even a German word for it (of course, right?): Servicewüste (= service desert, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste) There is no cultural norm to strive to appear happy and friendly at all times and there are simply people who don't care to hide their grumpiness. Whether that would classify as a "bad" experience is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I mostly have a chuckle over a grumpy counterpart. When language barriers come into play I've seen examples of both sides: people getting colleagues to help out, being supportive and friendly to solve the issues at hand and others who didn't try to hide their frustration or make an effort. Given the amount of English speaking people in the city won't decrease for the foreseeable future, there isn't much of a problem you can't solve even as a non-German speaker I'd say.
TurboHaskal 9y ago
Sadly, the hostile service culture seems to be prevalent in the whole Germanic world.

shostack 9y ago

>"Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland." Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?

sedachv 9y ago
Many European cultures consider the inauthentic cheerfulness that is expected as part of emotional labor in Anglophone societies distasteful (I have been living in North America for many years, and still find it distasteful), and workers in those cultures rightly recognize these demands for emotional labor as being harmful to their mental health (see for example Hochschild's seminal The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling).
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  What makes you think that the cheerfulness is "inauthentic"? Some people actually do genuinely like other people and enjoy helping them. That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering.
  - sedachv 9y ago
    > That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering. As would one's inability to understand eye contact and body language.
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      Body language and eye contact protocols differ between cultures. A lot. Have you considered the possibility that you are presenting yourself as what they see as rude and unfriendly, thus leading them to be uncomfortable while serving you?
      - sedachv 9y ago
        Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people? For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either. On the other hand I usually have pleasant interactions with workers, and I also do not go around complaining when I receive less than enthusiastic service. One of the manners that helps in having pleasant interactions is avoiding giving strangers unsolicited advice, about their behavior or otherwise.
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        "Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people?" Well, we have two alternatives here: 1) A person who grew up in a culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture. 2) Someone who grew up in a totally different culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture. Now, which of those two seems more likely to you? "For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either." Oh, I got that. I was just attempting to be polite by ignoring you being a jerk. Maybe someone is forcing me to do "unpaid emotional labor" or something. Once again: it's not them. It's you.
thenaturalist 9y ago
Putting in my two cents as a German living in Berlin: it's a cultural thing. There is even a German word for it (of course, right?): Servicewüste (= service desert, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste) There is no cultural norm to strive to appear happy and friendly at all times and there are simply people who don't care to hide their grumpiness. Whether that would classify as a "bad" experience is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I mostly have a chuckle over a grumpy counterpart. When language barriers come into play I've seen examples of both sides: people getting colleagues to help out, being supportive and friendly to solve the issues at hand and others who didn't try to hide their frustration or make an effort. Given the amount of English speaking people in the city won't decrease for the foreseeable future, there isn't much of a problem you can't solve even as a non-German speaker I'd say.

TurboHaskal 9y ago

Sadly, the hostile service culture seems to be prevalent in the whole Germanic world.