4 ms·

It is not spite, it is contempt. A healthy well-adjusted individual doesn't talk that way about their own race and gender. It's toxic and I steer clear of such

It is not spite, it is contempt. A healthy well-adjusted individual doesn't talk that way about their own race and gender. It's toxic and I steer clear of such people. You don't see any value in recognizing and trying to be respectful of the disproportionate difficulties and hardship that certain groups have experienced in the past? Especially as such things have been somewhat overlooked or ignored until recently? It's not my responsibility, concern, or problem. I reject any attempt by anyone to insinuate that it should be. I also reject anything that is against my interests as a member of any demographic group I am a part of. My position is universal and logically consistent (I expect the same of any other human being, no matter what groups they belong to). Is yours?

qb45 9y ago
To be honest, this time it may have been a kind of joke or irony, not actual self-hatred. But of course there are people who really mean it.
dwaltrip 9y ago
I think your interpretation of their statement is not something they would agree with. Which means you are arguing against a strawman. You are welcome to feel that you have no responsibility to consider the difficulties other people have gone through. However, you may have a harder time connecting and relating to other people as a result. And that implies many other potentially undesirable ramifications...
- lacampbell 9y ago
  You are welcome to feel that you have no responsibility to consider the difficulties other people have gone through. However, you may have a harder time connecting and relating to other people as a result. And that implies many other potentially undesirable ramifications... Your transparent attempt to assume the moral high ground has been noted. There is nothing in what I said that precludes me feeling empathy for individuals. Insinuating that - because I reject guilt via membership of demographic groups, I must have relationship difficulties or be a bad person - is reprehensible. If you are unable to make a point, you may find silence serves you best.
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    > Your transparent attempt to assume the moral high ground has been noted. I wasn't attempting to do so. I probably could have been a little more careful with my wording, though. > because I reject guilt via membership of demographic groups It's not "guilt". It's simply acknowledging legitimate societal dynamics, and being considerate of these things when interacting with others. Here's a basic example that I find very analogous: Imagine having friend who is currently struggling with money, and you have just received a large bonus. It seems very reasonable to be a bit more careful with how one shares the good news with this friend. In fact, it isn't hard to imagine a scenario in which one unintentionally comes off as a jerk if they didn't remember about the friend's situation. If someone has experienced very little discrimination in life, then how is it unreasonable to tread carefully when asking difficult and potentially naive questions about discrimination to those who have experienced a fair amount?
    - lacampbell 9y ago
      I wasn't attempting to do so. I probably could have been a little more careful with my wording, though. Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Here's a basic example that I find very analogous: Imagine having friend who is currently struggling with money, and you have just received a large bonus. It seems very reasonable to be a bit more careful with how one shares the good news with this friend. In fact, it isn't hard to imagine a scenario in which one unintentionally comes off as a jerk if they didn't remember about the friend's situation. If someone has experienced very little discrimination in life, then how is it unreasonable to tread carefully when asking difficult and potentially naive questions about discrimination to those who have experienced a fair amount? I can be sympathetic about the plight of an individual. But I am not of the opinion that living in a society full of people that belong to my groups is a net-negative for people that don't belong to my groups. Which seems to be the underlying assumption of wringing your hands over being a 'privileged white male'.
      - dwaltrip 9y ago
        > living in a society full of people that belong to my groups is a net-negative for people that don't belong to my groups This is not a statement I would ever make, or an analysis I would find valuable to explore. Trying to compare the overall net gains and losses that different groups in society receive from each other seems both incredibly impossible, as well as unable provide any concrete, actionable information. > wringing your hands over being a 'privileged white male'. Once again, I doubt the author of the linked article would agree with this characterization. To me, it seems the author is simply trying to be considerate about a touchy, complex issue. Being disappointed that the company one works for is lacking in diversity is NOT the same thing as being wracked with guilt over one's cultural background or privilege. Edit: Made a few tweaks and tried to make my points more clearly. Hopefully you weren't already replying.

qb45 9y ago

To be honest, this time it may have been a kind of joke or irony, not actual self-hatred. But of course there are people who really mean it.

dwaltrip 9y ago

I think your interpretation of their statement is not something they would agree with. Which means you are arguing against a strawman. You are welcome to feel that you have no responsibility to consider the difficulties other people have gone through. However, you may have a harder time connecting and relating to other people as a result. And that implies many other potentially undesirable ramifications...

lacampbell 9y ago
You are welcome to feel that you have no responsibility to consider the difficulties other people have gone through. However, you may have a harder time connecting and relating to other people as a result. And that implies many other potentially undesirable ramifications... Your transparent attempt to assume the moral high ground has been noted. There is nothing in what I said that precludes me feeling empathy for individuals. Insinuating that - because I reject guilt via membership of demographic groups, I must have relationship difficulties or be a bad person - is reprehensible. If you are unable to make a point, you may find silence serves you best.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  > Your transparent attempt to assume the moral high ground has been noted. I wasn't attempting to do so. I probably could have been a little more careful with my wording, though. > because I reject guilt via membership of demographic groups It's not "guilt". It's simply acknowledging legitimate societal dynamics, and being considerate of these things when interacting with others. Here's a basic example that I find very analogous: Imagine having friend who is currently struggling with money, and you have just received a large bonus. It seems very reasonable to be a bit more careful with how one shares the good news with this friend. In fact, it isn't hard to imagine a scenario in which one unintentionally comes off as a jerk if they didn't remember about the friend's situation. If someone has experienced very little discrimination in life, then how is it unreasonable to tread carefully when asking difficult and potentially naive questions about discrimination to those who have experienced a fair amount?
  - lacampbell 9y ago
    I wasn't attempting to do so. I probably could have been a little more careful with my wording, though. Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Here's a basic example that I find very analogous: Imagine having friend who is currently struggling with money, and you have just received a large bonus. It seems very reasonable to be a bit more careful with how one shares the good news with this friend. In fact, it isn't hard to imagine a scenario in which one unintentionally comes off as a jerk if they didn't remember about the friend's situation. If someone has experienced very little discrimination in life, then how is it unreasonable to tread carefully when asking difficult and potentially naive questions about discrimination to those who have experienced a fair amount? I can be sympathetic about the plight of an individual. But I am not of the opinion that living in a society full of people that belong to my groups is a net-negative for people that don't belong to my groups. Which seems to be the underlying assumption of wringing your hands over being a 'privileged white male'.
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      > living in a society full of people that belong to my groups is a net-negative for people that don't belong to my groups This is not a statement I would ever make, or an analysis I would find valuable to explore. Trying to compare the overall net gains and losses that different groups in society receive from each other seems both incredibly impossible, as well as unable provide any concrete, actionable information. > wringing your hands over being a 'privileged white male'. Once again, I doubt the author of the linked article would agree with this characterization. To me, it seems the author is simply trying to be considerate about a touchy, complex issue. Being disappointed that the company one works for is lacking in diversity is NOT the same thing as being wracked with guilt over one's cultural background or privilege. Edit: Made a few tweaks and tried to make my points more clearly. Hopefully you weren't already replying.