10 ms·
Ask HN: How friendly is Berlin for startups?
How are procedures to open a startup in Berlin / Germany? What about taxes? Is it generally a startup friendly environment?
- kinnth 9y agoI lived in Berlin for 3 years, but I didn't found or form a company. I do have a friend who has just done it. I wouldn't want to comment on the specifics but the basics are this. 1. Very easy to form a company in Germany as a foreigner 2. You will need a native german speaker, it's beauracratic and you need to speak solid German to deal with it. 3. Taxes are higher than the US, but they are fair. You pay more as you earn more. 4. There are many taxes as an individual you can claim back, such as clothes, travel to work, space in your house etc. If you get a good accountant they can really help. 5. Berlin itself is very cheap to get a great location, good tech talent but not overflowing, incredibly decent lifestyle, lots of space, lovely place to live a chilled out vibe. I'd say if you've lived in Germany and Berlin and like it, you can do it. If you have never lived there you should move their first and see if you like the German way of life first, it's not like US or UK.
- good_vibes 9y agoHow is the German way of life different from US/UK? I've been thinking about living/working in Berlin for some time now. I've always respected German engineering, one of my favorite authors is Herman Hesse, I enjoy the nature photography I've seen of the German countryside, and I've heard amazing things about their beer/food.
- telesilla 9y agoHow are you with bitter, bone-chilling cold during the winters? Which is offset by pleasant (though short) summers, where you can ride your bike as far as you please or enjoy the excellent metro system, and partake of the extensive creative and social events. I've only spent short periods of time in Berlin but it always struck me as having a significant amount to offer, if you can deal with the winter.
- good_vibes 9y agoI don't actually mind winter after living an entire year in Northern Utah. It's refreshing after growing up in the Southeast where it's 100 degrees and humid in the summer and there is a very mild winter with no snow. Are people in German nice to Indian people? Not sure with all the politics of the EU at the moment, the media makes things confusing. Utah was a little weird for anyone who isn't LDS AND white or married to a white person. There is what I call a fake niceness about many people there, a few are genuinely nice though. I've heard German people are very friendly and intelligent, what was your experience?
- majewsky 9y ago> Are people in German nice to Indian people? If you have an Indian accent, that should be pretty recognizable. If you don't speak, though, expect people to think that you're from the Middle East, a region that's (to say it lightly) not that popular with a certain part of Germans. Which isn't to say that you won't be able to make friends. Quite on the contrary. The outspoken racism of a small part of the population (catch phrase: "I'm not a nazi, BUT...") has made another part of the population even more willing to embrace multiculturalism.
- good_vibes 9y agoI speak clear English, as I was born in the US. However, all my friends have called me Kumar for the longest time. I can talk about music, film, books, tech, science. I think Berlin will be okay for me because I'm working on a platform that aims to solve a few environmental issues. Germany is very progressive in that arena, Utah has been in the news around the world for the whole Public Lands fiasco.
- zurn 9y agoSounds like you are from a very warm climate. A lot of people consider Berlin winters mild and summers hot.
- BjoernKW 9y ago
- Teichopsia 9y agoI've been thinking as well about moving there for a while now. Any German city/town actually, it doesn't matter to me. What I'm wondering is how difficult would it be to find a job once there, or how long - on average would it take. Would you know by any chance?
- perseiden 9y agoIf you're not bound to any specific town you'll most likely find something within a month or two. If you're moving from outside of the EU though you and your employer might have to wait an additional 1 - 6 months for your work visa to go through, during which you're not allowed to earn money. The timeframe might be shorter in smaller towns than Berlin though ;)
- Teichopsia 9y agoNow I'm even more confused. First they downvote you into the ground and here you are again. Trigger happy people who don't explain. Could you (or anyone else) recommend places to look into? Visa isn't a problem.
- majewsky 9y agoLeipzig (about 200km south-west of Berlin) is also quite hot with startups right now from what I've heard. Cost of living is (afaik) lower than in Berlin or Munich, and the city is pretty nice to look at (lots of green, and the city center has been restored to former glory after the Wall fell). As an added bonus, it's quite central within Germany and well-connected traffic-wise, so you can get to any other place in Germany within 5 hours max.
- Teichopsia 9y agoThanks. Previously I was considering Nuremberg but this city has piked my interest.
- chrisked 9y ago
- charlesdm 9y agoI'm not based in Germany / Berlin (great city though!) but I wouldn't exactly call German taxes simple or low. Germany has one of the most complicated tax codes in the world, obviously written in german. If taxes are mostly what matter to you, then there are probably better places to relocate to.
- manggit 9y agoThe one nice thing about German taxes is that, although complicated, they make it very easy for you to know how much you owe. They essentially obfuscate the complexity from the citizens. Also, consider what you are getting for your German taxes, and it may very well be worth it. If only the MUNI in San Francisco ran like the U-Bahn. You really have no reason to own a car in Germany. Also note, as a Software Engineer living in California, your income tax (State and Federal) is probably close to 40%.
- closeparen 9y agoWhy do German automakers thrive there, then? Always found it odd that some of the most sophisticated cars in the world are made in a country where supposedly no one has any use for them. Is it just cities vs. small towns?
- manggit 9y agoWhen I worked at a cleantech startup in the summer of 2010, the culture was less favorable to employees than in the bay area. For example, it seemed that the cultural norm was to give none, or very little equity, thus reducing the upside for any early employee. In recent years I have interviewed as a Software Engineer and Senior Product Manager at a couple startups in Germany. However, after receiving a couple offers, I found that the costs of living in Germany as an American (US Taxes, Visa, USD -> Euro exchange rate) were not sufficiently covered by the salaries, even on the high end. For American companies looking to hire talent in Germany, I have heard that it is was less competitive, lower cost per engineer and the talent top notch.
- nerthus 9y agoJust out of curiosity, did you take into account, that about half of your gross salary goes into social/health care in germany?
- germanier 9y agoMore like 20.5% including pension. Even when you include all portitions that the employer has to cover (which is not relevant when looking at a job offer as those come on top of the stated salary) we only get to about 40.7% which may be much but is still far from "about half".
- majewsky 9y agoYeah, the US making you pay taxes as a citizen while working abroad is pretty cruel. I had a colleague from America who was sitting in our German office for some time, who didn't know about this rule and was utterly shocked when the US told him he'd have to pay some 20k dollars or so in taxes. He flew back to the US within a day or so to avoid any additional taxes.
- Bombthecat 9y agoIt is not cruel, he needed to have earned a shit ton of money (I think right now around 120K? a year for the need to pay taxes in US, if he not a CEO it is quit hard to get that payment even if you are a pro programmer)
- WordSkill 9y agoThe complexity of German taxes and all the other red tape seems to be the main reason why people change their mind about starting up in Berlin but, personally, it was the rudeness that wore me down. Berliners can be very nice in certain situations, such as the people you work with, but they have a hostile service culture. Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland. The other problem is that many Berliners regard young foreign workers as being the reason why rents are increasing and this became a political issue a few years ago. I'm not sure what the current situation is but, at that time, you would see graffiti around town, letting you know that you were not welcome, and you would frequently hear the same sentiment expressed in social situations. Ironically, the people who were quickest to let you know that the foreign tech workers were not welcome were the same "anti-fascist" trendies who call everyone else racist. This hostility wasn't something I experienced when living in other German cities, it seems to be a Berlin-specific phenomenon.
- shostack 9y ago>"Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland." Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?
- sedachv 9y agoMany European cultures consider the inauthentic cheerfulness that is expected as part of emotional labor in Anglophone societies distasteful (I have been living in North America for many years, and still find it distasteful), and workers in those cultures rightly recognize these demands for emotional labor as being harmful to their mental health (see for example Hochschild's seminal The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling).
- sultanofsaltin 9y agoI'm moving to the Berlin in the fall myself. Planning to use it as our home base for work/ exploring Europe from early Oct '17 to late Aug '18. I freelance as a software dev (primarily Python, JS and PHP work) in the US now and would love to hear if anyone has tips on picking up clients as an foreigner. I've been studying German daily (15-30 mins) for the past 1.5 months, hoping to be near fluent by the time we arrive, so hopefully I can minimize the language barrier. Are there any good resources people have used for finding freelance work internationally or that are even specific to Berlin/ Germany?
- MK999 9y agocheck out the youtube pheonix online its a german speaking roundtable program about current events very helpful for lang acquisition
- sultanofsaltin 9y agoAs an aside: I kind of wish this thread had kicked off at a reasonable hour for those actually in Berlin right now :)
- thenaturalist 9y agoAhem, late Berliner checking in... While I am not a freelancer, I happen to work with one (he's mostly doing Django for my startup). He's originally from London, happy to connect you if you'd like to get first hand experience. You can find contact details on my profile page.
- boreas 9y agoYou're planning on studying German for half a year for 15-30 mins a day and becoming fluent? That sounds really ambitious. If you've pulled off a similar feat in the past, do you have any language learning tips?
- sultanofsaltin 9y agoTouché. My original sentence said reasonably conversant. I probably should've left it at that. "Shoot for the stars, so if you fall you land on a cloud. - Kanye West"
- philippz 9y agoThere was enough said about taxes. The procedures to open a startup in Germany are complex. This is the cheapest way: Go to the notary and create a "UG" after "Musterprotokoll". Create a company bank account, transfer the minimum amount of 1€ (plus the costs for founding, so you better transfer ~500€). This the fastest way and costs you together with an entry the commercial register (150€) around 500€ (300€ for the notary, depending on how many founders). This is followed up by stuff like "Körperschafts Anmeldung @Finanzamt", "Gewerbeamtanmeldung" (25€) and "IHK Gebühren" (80€/yr) and "VBG Anmeldung" (costs vary by the amount of employed persons). Don't forget the contract for the CEO as employed person. As already told by others: You need to have a native speaker on your side to deal with the bureaucracy. Is this a startup friendly environment? Does it sound like? Hell no. On the other hand: You can live in Berlin really cheap if you want to. Infrastructure is great and you don't need a car. There are a lot of meetups and startup events to get around people like yourself. Programmers aren't payed that well. Fundraising is a matter of network and traction like, i'd say, everywhere else.
- perseiden 9y agoSpeaking of bureaucracy, one thing that shouldn't be left out is that as a non-EU citizen you will also have to deal with the Ausländerbehörde for your visa. There you will have to deal with bureaucrats that refuse to speak anything besides german and the rather complicated process of acquiring a visa or specifically an Arbeitserlaubnis that allows you to earn money. My wife had to go through it as an employee and I've helped colleagues with visiting scientist visas. I've heard from others that a freelancer visa comes with a whole array of different requirements that can be hard to meet, but maybe someone else knows more about it. While visas here in general are doable and probably a lot less complicated than a US Greencard / Visa, it is something you should check out beforehand.
- ibotty 9y agoFound a "UG (haftungsbeschränkt)". That way you don't need 20000 Euro in in hand.
- BjoernKW 9y agoI'm not saying it isn't bureaucratic. It is. However, I suppose you need a native-level proficiency speaker everywhere when founding a company.
- mkreis 9y agoI'm German, moved around quite a bit and spend two years in Silicon Valley. After moving back, I worked for a startup in Berlin and eventually founded (with two other guys) my own startup beginning of 2016, which we sold one year later. Berlin is certainly the best place to found in startup in Germany. The ecosystem is huge and a large portion of people are from other countries, thus it is very international (and english speaking). Of course there is a lot bureaucracy in getting the company started, but you are not the first one to do that and there are people helping you. German tax law is complicated, thus it is definitely worth hiring an accountant to do all the paper work for you (if you run a proper business with customers, not just a stealth startup). We did some price comparison, in particular for lawyers to draft some contracts, which revealed a huge difference (range between 100 - 350 euros/h) and helped us save a lot of money (we even got a fixed price). Same for tax accountants. I strongly suggest picking small offices, not the ones with fancy offices in expensive locations. You'll pay for that and the service is almost identical. Depending on the legal entity you choose (UG, GmbH, ...) the costs vary. GmbH are most common and have a good reputation, but are expensive if you have multiple owners. Also you need to invest at least 25k upfront (therefore the good reputation). UGs are cheap and you can do business as well, it just looks cheaper on your business card. Of course there is more to take into account, but that would lead too much into details. To get more information about founding in Berlin, there are plenty of meetups for all kinds of topics and the state Berlin as well as the board of trade (IHK) are very interested in helping founders (they are their future members). There you'll find even more fairs and events for founders.
- sultanofsaltin 9y agoSome more meta-questions: are there some HN-esque sites that are more popular in Europe/ Germany? Even between major cities in the US I've observed a lot of variability in job postings/ language usage trends, services used, etc. Has anyone found that to be the case in international work? How have you dealt?
- mkreis 9y agoNot HN-esque but worth mentioning: A popular job page is berlinstartupjobs.com and the xing.com, the LinkedIn competitor in German speaking countries.