6 ms·

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work t

by ska 9y ago

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k. Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job. You may have an opportunity for a different job at 2.5 timed salary, but mostly people don't Much more realistic is a 30% bump, which is still on the high end giving you a disposable income multiple of 2.5, which isn't bad. Anyway, the numbers vary a bit with higher salary and rates, but mostly people won't see anywhere near 3x, let alone 8x - unless they are comparing very different jobs.

mahyarm 9y ago
For Canadians it's the status quo. I was looking for my first job out of college, offers in Canada were 1/2 what they were in Seattle. Cost of living was lower than Vancouver. A TN visa was a low barrier. This story repeats over and over again.
- moolcool 9y ago
  Everyone in this thread is talking about Vancouver, which is a housing nightmare. The scene in other Canadian cities is more practical
  - shados 9y ago
    Where? Toronto housing isn't cheap by Canadian standards, and salaries, while higher as far as I know, are not super high either. Montreal is ridiculous since it is essentially NYC's favorite "nearshoring" . It's also big for game dev, which pays like crap even by Montreal standards. Is it better in Edmonton? No idea. But with Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto out of the picture, that leaves precious few options.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Montreal rents are not too expensive, no. There are other issues though
      - watter 9y ago
        If you can learn a programming language you can learn to say bonjour and order a meal in French. I know, I have done this.
        wayn3 9y ago
        doesnt mean that you want to.
        raverbashing 9y ago
        Correct, and that's not an issue (for me) But the rigorous winters are one, also see my other comment in this thread
        shados 9y ago
        The OQLF breathing down our neck bitching we didn't translate every single piece of internal software we had and exclusively use Quebec layout keyboard was fucking annoying. They apply their rules in a discretionary fashion so it affects different companies differently, but having to fend them off continually is a pain. The caliber of engineer is just bad too. There's always the occasional superstar teams, but it's really, really hard to find a good spot unless you have connections...and even if you do, 2 years later as personnel shifts it goes to hell again. I would have taken a pay -cut- to work in a different city. Fortunately, you'll never have to since the salaries are so bad.
shados 9y ago
2.5x sounds about right post tax, post expenses, including higher rent, for the same role. That's already a huge difference But as you mentioned, unless you compare different jobs: the same opportunities simply don't exist up there. Making 300k, 400k or more? Its certainly not common in NYC or SF, but if you try hard enough, and shoot for it, its possible. Up north? Maybe as an exec, but as an individual contributor or tech leadish style position? I wouldn't know where to start looking. While here there's a lot of options. There's not for everyone by a long shot, but they are there. Thus 8x or more becomes possible. And someone like a top Waterloo engineering graduate has an above average chance at those. But I don't know where they would without moving country.
- ska 9y ago
  Seeing a noticeable bump in discretionary income after tax is very realistic - on average taxes are a bit lower, salaries are a bit higher. Seeing an 8-fold increase is unlikely. You are right that there are many more top tier opportunities (although they do cost in Canada in small numbers) - but by definition nearly, this doesn't apply to most developers.
potatolicious 9y ago
> "Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job." I'm a Canadian that moved to the US for work - this multiple sounds entirely plausible, in fact it sounds like a conservative estimate. In major tech hubs the multiple is closer to 3-4x. > "Much more realistic is a 30% bump" This is not at all realistic - I know many Canadians working in the US as developers and all of them are making well in excess of 200% of their Canadian market rate. You're characterizing Canadian tech salaries (in say, Vancouver or Toronto) as being moderately below US standards (~30%?), where in fact they are vastly below the standard in comparable markets (SFBA, Seattle, NYC, etc). The gap is already big for new grads, but it widens even further with experience. A dev with ~5+ years of experience can reasonably triple their salary moving south.
- shados 9y ago
  Yup, exactly. I mean, I can see it happening frequently the way the person who replied to me said it. If you're in a hot area in Canada that pays decently (I think Toronto is probably not bad, I never worked there), you probably can hit 100k? Then if you move in a tech hub and you're not all that, 135-140k is possible. Then your multiplier isn't that high. But if you were making 70-80k in Canada then hit the US and do 200k + RSUs + bonus, you're in a much different world...and it can just keep going up and up and up and up, while up north you will hit a wall much sooner.
  - potatolicious 9y ago
    Especially because there is an entire category of dev jobs that simply don't exist in Canada: the $300-500k senior dev roles at institutional BigCos like Google, FB, MS, Apple, etc.
  - ska 9y ago
    And if you are making 150k + RSUs + bonus in Canada do you really think you'll get a 3-4x larger offer in the US? Again, I'm not denying that vastly more of these opportunities exist in the US, particularly in a few locations. But that doesn't factor into the majority of tech jobs on either side of the border.

by ska 9y ago

mahyarm 9y ago

For Canadians it's the status quo. I was looking for my first job out of college, offers in Canada were 1/2 what they were in Seattle. Cost of living was lower than Vancouver. A TN visa was a low barrier. This story repeats over and over again.

moolcool 9y ago
Everyone in this thread is talking about Vancouver, which is a housing nightmare. The scene in other Canadian cities is more practical
- shados 9y ago
  Where? Toronto housing isn't cheap by Canadian standards, and salaries, while higher as far as I know, are not super high either. Montreal is ridiculous since it is essentially NYC's favorite "nearshoring" . It's also big for game dev, which pays like crap even by Montreal standards. Is it better in Edmonton? No idea. But with Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto out of the picture, that leaves precious few options.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Montreal rents are not too expensive, no. There are other issues though
    - watter 9y ago
      If you can learn a programming language you can learn to say bonjour and order a meal in French. I know, I have done this.
      - wayn3 9y ago
        doesnt mean that you want to.
      - raverbashing 9y ago
        Correct, and that's not an issue (for me) But the rigorous winters are one, also see my other comment in this thread
      - shados 9y ago
        The OQLF breathing down our neck bitching we didn't translate every single piece of internal software we had and exclusively use Quebec layout keyboard was fucking annoying. They apply their rules in a discretionary fashion so it affects different companies differently, but having to fend them off continually is a pain. The caliber of engineer is just bad too. There's always the occasional superstar teams, but it's really, really hard to find a good spot unless you have connections...and even if you do, 2 years later as personnel shifts it goes to hell again. I would have taken a pay -cut- to work in a different city. Fortunately, you'll never have to since the salaries are so bad.

shados 9y ago

2.5x sounds about right post tax, post expenses, including higher rent, for the same role. That's already a huge difference But as you mentioned, unless you compare different jobs: the same opportunities simply don't exist up there. Making 300k, 400k or more? Its certainly not common in NYC or SF, but if you try hard enough, and shoot for it, its possible. Up north? Maybe as an exec, but as an individual contributor or tech leadish style position? I wouldn't know where to start looking. While here there's a lot of options. There's not for everyone by a long shot, but they are there. Thus 8x or more becomes possible. And someone like a top Waterloo engineering graduate has an above average chance at those. But I don't know where they would without moving country.

ska 9y ago
Seeing a noticeable bump in discretionary income after tax is very realistic - on average taxes are a bit lower, salaries are a bit higher. Seeing an 8-fold increase is unlikely. You are right that there are many more top tier opportunities (although they do cost in Canada in small numbers) - but by definition nearly, this doesn't apply to most developers.

potatolicious 9y ago

> "Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job." I'm a Canadian that moved to the US for work - this multiple sounds entirely plausible, in fact it sounds like a conservative estimate. In major tech hubs the multiple is closer to 3-4x. > "Much more realistic is a 30% bump" This is not at all realistic - I know many Canadians working in the US as developers and all of them are making well in excess of 200% of their Canadian market rate. You're characterizing Canadian tech salaries (in say, Vancouver or Toronto) as being moderately below US standards (~30%?), where in fact they are vastly below the standard in comparable markets (SFBA, Seattle, NYC, etc). The gap is already big for new grads, but it widens even further with experience. A dev with ~5+ years of experience can reasonably triple their salary moving south.

shados 9y ago
Yup, exactly. I mean, I can see it happening frequently the way the person who replied to me said it. If you're in a hot area in Canada that pays decently (I think Toronto is probably not bad, I never worked there), you probably can hit 100k? Then if you move in a tech hub and you're not all that, 135-140k is possible. Then your multiplier isn't that high. But if you were making 70-80k in Canada then hit the US and do 200k + RSUs + bonus, you're in a much different world...and it can just keep going up and up and up and up, while up north you will hit a wall much sooner.
- potatolicious 9y ago
  Especially because there is an entire category of dev jobs that simply don't exist in Canada: the $300-500k senior dev roles at institutional BigCos like Google, FB, MS, Apple, etc.
- ska 9y ago
  And if you are making 150k + RSUs + bonus in Canada do you really think you'll get a 3-4x larger offer in the US? Again, I'm not denying that vastly more of these opportunities exist in the US, particularly in a few locations. But that doesn't factor into the majority of tech jobs on either side of the border.