6 ms·

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable inco

by shados 9y ago

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almost 30 years. The difference is absolutely absurd. And since a lot of things don't vary in price with the average cost of living (cars are not more expensive south of the border. Neither are smartphones or restaurants), it matters.

cylinder 9y ago
Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?
- coredog64 9y ago
  Because integrating those offices is a PITA. Your workers in Paris or Lyon aren't going to stay late so that your workers in Mountain View can start the meeting at 9am rather than at 7am.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    Workers in British Columbia, IIRC, are in the same time-zone as Mountain View.
- shados 9y ago
  As mentioned, its a pain in the ass to manage all of those offices. Also, the cost of running those offices, with all the different laws you might be unfamiliar with, can be complicated. I worked for a company that did just that: open an office in Canada in the same timezone as their American HQ to cut cost. The taxes, expenses, and complying with local laws at large scale (think: Quebec language laws) are real, and they almost ended up killing the office because the cost was too high. They absolutely were hiring more in the American office in the end from a pure cost perspective, and using the Canadian one to scale even though it was super expensive to run. Now, its very likely it was them simply being inefficient and unprepared for it, but it doesn't really matter: its a real issue. Now in the case of my current employer, we absolutely have international offices where getting head count is much cheaper, but to scale, we need offices everywhere where there's talent, and that includes in the big american metros. In my case, I just moved to get the $$$ of the American offices, that's all :)
- jstelly 9y ago
  It seems like firms that are large enough to manage multiple offices do exactly that. In the games industry electronic arts is a good example. They have offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Edmonton (a huge team grown out of the BioWare acquisition) and possibly other places in Canada.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    Microsoft has a campus in Vancouver (well, Richmond, originally - it moved to downtown Vancouver later) since 2007. There was around 600 people there last year, mostly devs.
- querulous 9y ago
  they do, but the canadians aren't stupid; they move to us jobs for 2x the compensation. the canadian offices are staffed mostly by non-canadians who couldn't get H1Bs or TNs but could qualify for the equivalent canadian visa.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ska 9y ago
Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k. Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job. You may have an opportunity for a different job at 2.5 timed salary, but mostly people don't Much more realistic is a 30% bump, which is still on the high end giving you a disposable income multiple of 2.5, which isn't bad. Anyway, the numbers vary a bit with higher salary and rates, but mostly people won't see anywhere near 3x, let alone 8x - unless they are comparing very different jobs.
- mahyarm 9y ago
  For Canadians it's the status quo. I was looking for my first job out of college, offers in Canada were 1/2 what they were in Seattle. Cost of living was lower than Vancouver. A TN visa was a low barrier. This story repeats over and over again.
  - moolcool 9y ago
    Everyone in this thread is talking about Vancouver, which is a housing nightmare. The scene in other Canadian cities is more practical
    - shados 9y ago
      Where? Toronto housing isn't cheap by Canadian standards, and salaries, while higher as far as I know, are not super high either. Montreal is ridiculous since it is essentially NYC's favorite "nearshoring" . It's also big for game dev, which pays like crap even by Montreal standards. Is it better in Edmonton? No idea. But with Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto out of the picture, that leaves precious few options.
      - raverbashing 9y ago
        Montreal rents are not too expensive, no. There are other issues though
ranit 9y ago
Sorry to ask you. Does the calculation include kids attending similar quality schools in both places?

by shados 9y ago

cylinder 9y ago

Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?

coredog64 9y ago
Because integrating those offices is a PITA. Your workers in Paris or Lyon aren't going to stay late so that your workers in Mountain View can start the meeting at 9am rather than at 7am.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  Workers in British Columbia, IIRC, are in the same time-zone as Mountain View.
shados 9y ago
As mentioned, its a pain in the ass to manage all of those offices. Also, the cost of running those offices, with all the different laws you might be unfamiliar with, can be complicated. I worked for a company that did just that: open an office in Canada in the same timezone as their American HQ to cut cost. The taxes, expenses, and complying with local laws at large scale (think: Quebec language laws) are real, and they almost ended up killing the office because the cost was too high. They absolutely were hiring more in the American office in the end from a pure cost perspective, and using the Canadian one to scale even though it was super expensive to run. Now, its very likely it was them simply being inefficient and unprepared for it, but it doesn't really matter: its a real issue. Now in the case of my current employer, we absolutely have international offices where getting head count is much cheaper, but to scale, we need offices everywhere where there's talent, and that includes in the big american metros. In my case, I just moved to get the $$$ of the American offices, that's all :)
jstelly 9y ago
It seems like firms that are large enough to manage multiple offices do exactly that. In the games industry electronic arts is a good example. They have offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Edmonton (a huge team grown out of the BioWare acquisition) and possibly other places in Canada.
- int_19h 9y ago
  Microsoft has a campus in Vancouver (well, Richmond, originally - it moved to downtown Vancouver later) since 2007. There was around 600 people there last year, mostly devs.
querulous 9y ago
they do, but the canadians aren't stupid; they move to us jobs for 2x the compensation. the canadian offices are staffed mostly by non-canadians who couldn't get H1Bs or TNs but could qualify for the equivalent canadian visa.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ska 9y ago

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k. Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job. You may have an opportunity for a different job at 2.5 timed salary, but mostly people don't Much more realistic is a 30% bump, which is still on the high end giving you a disposable income multiple of 2.5, which isn't bad. Anyway, the numbers vary a bit with higher salary and rates, but mostly people won't see anywhere near 3x, let alone 8x - unless they are comparing very different jobs.

mahyarm 9y ago
For Canadians it's the status quo. I was looking for my first job out of college, offers in Canada were 1/2 what they were in Seattle. Cost of living was lower than Vancouver. A TN visa was a low barrier. This story repeats over and over again.
- moolcool 9y ago
  Everyone in this thread is talking about Vancouver, which is a housing nightmare. The scene in other Canadian cities is more practical
  - shados 9y ago
    Where? Toronto housing isn't cheap by Canadian standards, and salaries, while higher as far as I know, are not super high either. Montreal is ridiculous since it is essentially NYC's favorite "nearshoring" . It's also big for game dev, which pays like crap even by Montreal standards. Is it better in Edmonton? No idea. But with Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto out of the picture, that leaves precious few options.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Montreal rents are not too expensive, no. There are other issues though

ranit 9y ago

Sorry to ask you. Does the calculation include kids attending similar quality schools in both places?