9 ms·

> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing

by schwap 9y ago

> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing that choice. Is there the opportunity to be 'more' secure in the States? Sure. But being a developer in Canada is hardly a bleak proposition.

ryanobjc 9y ago
If you are in Vancouver, isn't it though? Cost of home ownership at SF levels. Check. Salary to match? Nope. I used to love Vancouver, I went to school there. I wanted to stay. But I doubt I'd move back except to retire.
- justinhj 9y ago
  I've lived and worked in London, NY, SF but I settled in Vancouver. I don't own a home but I pay a modest rent for a house in a good part of the suburbs and I commute on world class public transportation. My salary would sound great compared to US salaries just a few years ago but the CAD has fallen since. Nevertheless it still buys a good quality of life in Vancouver. I'm proud of the values that people have here in Canada and I'm raising a family somewhere where I feel safe and welcome as an immigrant.
shados 9y ago
After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almost 30 years. The difference is absolutely absurd. And since a lot of things don't vary in price with the average cost of living (cars are not more expensive south of the border. Neither are smartphones or restaurants), it matters.
- cylinder 9y ago
  Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?
  - coredog64 9y ago
    Because integrating those offices is a PITA. Your workers in Paris or Lyon aren't going to stay late so that your workers in Mountain View can start the meeting at 9am rather than at 7am.
    - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
      Workers in British Columbia, IIRC, are in the same time-zone as Mountain View.
  - shados 9y ago
    As mentioned, its a pain in the ass to manage all of those offices. Also, the cost of running those offices, with all the different laws you might be unfamiliar with, can be complicated. I worked for a company that did just that: open an office in Canada in the same timezone as their American HQ to cut cost. The taxes, expenses, and complying with local laws at large scale (think: Quebec language laws) are real, and they almost ended up killing the office because the cost was too high. They absolutely were hiring more in the American office in the end from a pure cost perspective, and using the Canadian one to scale even though it was super expensive to run. Now, its very likely it was them simply being inefficient and unprepared for it, but it doesn't really matter: its a real issue. Now in the case of my current employer, we absolutely have international offices where getting head count is much cheaper, but to scale, we need offices everywhere where there's talent, and that includes in the big american metros. In my case, I just moved to get the $$$ of the American offices, that's all :)
  - jstelly 9y ago
    It seems like firms that are large enough to manage multiple offices do exactly that. In the games industry electronic arts is a good example. They have offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Edmonton (a huge team grown out of the BioWare acquisition) and possibly other places in Canada.

by schwap 9y ago

ryanobjc 9y ago

If you are in Vancouver, isn't it though? Cost of home ownership at SF levels. Check. Salary to match? Nope. I used to love Vancouver, I went to school there. I wanted to stay. But I doubt I'd move back except to retire.

justinhj 9y ago
I've lived and worked in London, NY, SF but I settled in Vancouver. I don't own a home but I pay a modest rent for a house in a good part of the suburbs and I commute on world class public transportation. My salary would sound great compared to US salaries just a few years ago but the CAD has fallen since. Nevertheless it still buys a good quality of life in Vancouver. I'm proud of the values that people have here in Canada and I'm raising a family somewhere where I feel safe and welcome as an immigrant.

shados 9y ago

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almost 30 years. The difference is absolutely absurd. And since a lot of things don't vary in price with the average cost of living (cars are not more expensive south of the border. Neither are smartphones or restaurants), it matters.

cylinder 9y ago
Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?
- coredog64 9y ago
  Because integrating those offices is a PITA. Your workers in Paris or Lyon aren't going to stay late so that your workers in Mountain View can start the meeting at 9am rather than at 7am.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    Workers in British Columbia, IIRC, are in the same time-zone as Mountain View.
- shados 9y ago
  As mentioned, its a pain in the ass to manage all of those offices. Also, the cost of running those offices, with all the different laws you might be unfamiliar with, can be complicated. I worked for a company that did just that: open an office in Canada in the same timezone as their American HQ to cut cost. The taxes, expenses, and complying with local laws at large scale (think: Quebec language laws) are real, and they almost ended up killing the office because the cost was too high. They absolutely were hiring more in the American office in the end from a pure cost perspective, and using the Canadian one to scale even though it was super expensive to run. Now, its very likely it was them simply being inefficient and unprepared for it, but it doesn't really matter: its a real issue. Now in the case of my current employer, we absolutely have international offices where getting head count is much cheaper, but to scale, we need offices everywhere where there's talent, and that includes in the big american metros. In my case, I just moved to get the $$$ of the American offices, that's all :)
- jstelly 9y ago
  It seems like firms that are large enough to manage multiple offices do exactly that. In the games industry electronic arts is a good example. They have offices in Vancouver, Montreal, and Edmonton (a huge team grown out of the BioWare acquisition) and possibly other places in Canada.