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"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Sea

"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's travel ban and other immigration policies." Nope. Just trying to capitalize on people's fear and anxiety to avoid matching their competitors' pay.

BrainInAJar 9y ago
As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.
- avaer 9y ago
  The last sentence here isn't self-consistent.
- nacho2sweet 9y ago
  Yeah who the fuck wants to live in Waterloo Ontario when you can live in California? Lmao. Real Canadian Winter, and crap summer. Many of the devs worth their dime in Vancouver end up remote working when they get to the Sr. level. Get paid in USD, and for 25-30% more in a stronger currency. Works out to almost 60% more?! also if you aren't a city person you can then move to one of the gulf islands.
  - lacampbell 9y ago
    American companies routinely pay remote foreign workers at American rates? I find it a bit hard to believe.
    - sergers 9y ago
      If they don't have an office in the remote country they do. I know a few vancouverites who live in Vancouver, who are working for Texas based companies, no local office in the country They are paid in USD. When the cdn dollar tanked against usd after being on par, it was like a 30-40% raise for them in cdn just cause of the exchange rate
  - r-s 9y ago
    No joke. I applied for several jobs in Vancouver and the best salary offer was 110k base (82k USD). Seattle actually seems to have a lower cost of living and salaries approx 2x as high. Its very hard to attract workers when the salaries just cant compare.
- ohhhwell 9y ago
  Unrelated tangent: It always baffle me how people view exchange rate as something that can "eat away your salary" and when you see people making statements like "it's so expensive in the UK, a pound is like 130% of a dollar". Makes me wonder if people who are only used to currencies that are roughly on the same scale view currencies in a different way than people who are used to 10x / 100x differences in currencies. Don't mean to pick at your comment, but it's something I've seen around lately and makes me wonder.
  - gricardo99 9y ago
    I think you misunderstand the comment about exchange rate. In Canada, the price difference of goods with the U.S. is beyond just the exchange rate. Thus, you can convert a salary between USD and CAD, but that doesn't account for higher prices of goods in Canada (beyond exchange rate differences). This is why many Canadians shop in the U.S. (if feasible), or travel to the U.S. to make big purchases (such as cars). When CAD gets stronger, w.r.t. USD, prices in Canada don't respond proportionately. Likewise, when CAD gets weaker, prices in Canada tend to respond quite rapidly. It seems asymmetric, and is another factor when comparing US/Canada cost of living. I'd love for an economist to explain this. It's never really made sense to me, but anecdotally, it's well known phenomenon in Canada.
    - grotsnot 9y ago
      IANAE but it sounds like when imports get cheaper, importers pocket as much of the the difference for as long as they can get away with it. When imports get more expensive, they pass on as much as they can to consumers as quickly as they can get away with it. Not terribly surprising for profit-driven behavior.
      - gricardo99 9y ago
        That sounds about right. Also, there's some cost to readjusting prices, so that probably introduces some price change hysteresis.
    - FT_intern 9y ago
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary." This is an honest question - is it worth living somewhere you "hate" for increased pay? Why not take less money and live in place that would make you happy?
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Depends on the price. Everyone has one. (or at least SHOULD have one). Here is an example. Would you accept 100 million dollars to work in Saudia Arabia for a year? I probably would. I'd do it for a year, and then retire. People do lots of things where they are exchanging happiness now, for happiness in the future. For him, it means that he can save up a whole bunch of money, and then retire 20 years earlier at the least.
    - bogomipz 9y ago
      >"Depends on the price. Everyone has one. (or at least SHOULD have one)" No, not everyone has a price for which they are willing to exchange their happiness for. I also completely disagree that everyone "should" have a price they are willing to exchange their happiness for. It's strikes me as quite odd that you choose to pronounce these things(your opinions) as universal and absolute truths. There are many people who work jobs that offer them happiness at the expense of lower pay. Artists, teachers, journalists, social service workers are all examples of this. I recently met some Americans and Britons who were working in tech in Berlin. Even though they could make a better salary back home they chose Berlin because the quality of life there makes them happier. So no, not "everybody" has a price. >"Here is an example. Would you accept 100 million dollars to work in Saudia Arabia for a year?" This is a total straw man. The OP actually stated that they were able to triple their salary by working in SV/SF. How is that at all comparable with being able to retire as one of the most wealthy people on the planet after 1 year? You are comparing a possible practical reality with a fantasy. Also along with tripling one's salary by working in SV/SF comes a higher tax bracket and probably triple what you would pay in rent in the most expensive Canadian tech hub. It's not very realistic to think that you are going to retire 20 years earlier on just a SF/SV salary, not even close.
deleted 9y ago
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schwap 9y ago
> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing that choice. Is there the opportunity to be 'more' secure in the States? Sure. But being a developer in Canada is hardly a bleak proposition.
- ryanobjc 9y ago
  If you are in Vancouver, isn't it though? Cost of home ownership at SF levels. Check. Salary to match? Nope. I used to love Vancouver, I went to school there. I wanted to stay. But I doubt I'd move back except to retire.
  - justinhj 9y ago
    I've lived and worked in London, NY, SF but I settled in Vancouver. I don't own a home but I pay a modest rent for a house in a good part of the suburbs and I commute on world class public transportation. My salary would sound great compared to US salaries just a few years ago but the CAD has fallen since. Nevertheless it still buys a good quality of life in Vancouver. I'm proud of the values that people have here in Canada and I'm raising a family somewhere where I feel safe and welcome as an immigrant.
- shados 9y ago
  After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almost 30 years. The difference is absolutely absurd. And since a lot of things don't vary in price with the average cost of living (cars are not more expensive south of the border. Neither are smartphones or restaurants), it matters.
  - cylinder 9y ago
    Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?
didibus 9y ago
I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest difference. Most startup capitalize on the US market, and that's just easier and more accessible to do if you're US based. In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in Canada, even with a large family. But compared to certain US cities, it's abysmal. It's kind of crazy that in the US, a bachelor degree in CS can give you pay close to what doctors make. And a 9 month dev boot camp can have you earn similar to many university level degrees. I'm not sure this will last forever. My point being, it's unclear if Canada's pay for tech is too low, or if some US cities pay is too high.
- canadian123456 9y ago
  > I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. In cities where the pay lowers so does the cost of living. Canada will never get over the exchange rate + availability of goods in America. Canada is an amazing country to live in but America is great too when you have money.
  - vkou 9y ago
    The cost of living in Vancouver is just as high as the cost of living in Seattle. This is after the Canadian dollar tanked. In fact, right now, the cost of buying a house in Seattle is much, much lower. Engineer wages in Seattle were ~30-100% higher - before the Canadian dollar tanked. Now they are ~50-160% higher.
    - int_19h 9y ago
      Vancouver is a bit of a special case because of how insane the property prices are there. It's like the Canadian SF, except without the job market.

BrainInAJar 9y ago

As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.

avaer 9y ago
The last sentence here isn't self-consistent.
nacho2sweet 9y ago
Yeah who the fuck wants to live in Waterloo Ontario when you can live in California? Lmao. Real Canadian Winter, and crap summer. Many of the devs worth their dime in Vancouver end up remote working when they get to the Sr. level. Get paid in USD, and for 25-30% more in a stronger currency. Works out to almost 60% more?! also if you aren't a city person you can then move to one of the gulf islands.
- lacampbell 9y ago
  American companies routinely pay remote foreign workers at American rates? I find it a bit hard to believe.
  - sergers 9y ago
    If they don't have an office in the remote country they do. I know a few vancouverites who live in Vancouver, who are working for Texas based companies, no local office in the country They are paid in USD. When the cdn dollar tanked against usd after being on par, it was like a 30-40% raise for them in cdn just cause of the exchange rate
- r-s 9y ago
  No joke. I applied for several jobs in Vancouver and the best salary offer was 110k base (82k USD). Seattle actually seems to have a lower cost of living and salaries approx 2x as high. Its very hard to attract workers when the salaries just cant compare.
ohhhwell 9y ago
Unrelated tangent: It always baffle me how people view exchange rate as something that can "eat away your salary" and when you see people making statements like "it's so expensive in the UK, a pound is like 130% of a dollar". Makes me wonder if people who are only used to currencies that are roughly on the same scale view currencies in a different way than people who are used to 10x / 100x differences in currencies. Don't mean to pick at your comment, but it's something I've seen around lately and makes me wonder.
- gricardo99 9y ago
  I think you misunderstand the comment about exchange rate. In Canada, the price difference of goods with the U.S. is beyond just the exchange rate. Thus, you can convert a salary between USD and CAD, but that doesn't account for higher prices of goods in Canada (beyond exchange rate differences). This is why many Canadians shop in the U.S. (if feasible), or travel to the U.S. to make big purchases (such as cars). When CAD gets stronger, w.r.t. USD, prices in Canada don't respond proportionately. Likewise, when CAD gets weaker, prices in Canada tend to respond quite rapidly. It seems asymmetric, and is another factor when comparing US/Canada cost of living. I'd love for an economist to explain this. It's never really made sense to me, but anecdotally, it's well known phenomenon in Canada.
  - grotsnot 9y ago
    IANAE but it sounds like when imports get cheaper, importers pocket as much of the the difference for as long as they can get away with it. When imports get more expensive, they pass on as much as they can to consumers as quickly as they can get away with it. Not terribly surprising for profit-driven behavior.
    - gricardo99 9y ago
      That sounds about right. Also, there's some cost to readjusting prices, so that probably introduces some price change hysteresis.
  - FT_intern 9y ago
bogomipz 9y ago
>"I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary." This is an honest question - is it worth living somewhere you "hate" for increased pay? Why not take less money and live in place that would make you happy?
- stale2002 9y ago
  Depends on the price. Everyone has one. (or at least SHOULD have one). Here is an example. Would you accept 100 million dollars to work in Saudia Arabia for a year? I probably would. I'd do it for a year, and then retire. People do lots of things where they are exchanging happiness now, for happiness in the future. For him, it means that he can save up a whole bunch of money, and then retire 20 years earlier at the least.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    >"Depends on the price. Everyone has one. (or at least SHOULD have one)" No, not everyone has a price for which they are willing to exchange their happiness for. I also completely disagree that everyone "should" have a price they are willing to exchange their happiness for. It's strikes me as quite odd that you choose to pronounce these things(your opinions) as universal and absolute truths. There are many people who work jobs that offer them happiness at the expense of lower pay. Artists, teachers, journalists, social service workers are all examples of this. I recently met some Americans and Britons who were working in tech in Berlin. Even though they could make a better salary back home they chose Berlin because the quality of life there makes them happier. So no, not "everybody" has a price. >"Here is an example. Would you accept 100 million dollars to work in Saudia Arabia for a year?" This is a total straw man. The OP actually stated that they were able to triple their salary by working in SV/SF. How is that at all comparable with being able to retire as one of the most wealthy people on the planet after 1 year? You are comparing a possible practical reality with a fantasy. Also along with tripling one's salary by working in SV/SF comes a higher tax bracket and probably triple what you would pay in rent in the most expensive Canadian tech hub. It's not very realistic to think that you are going to retire 20 years earlier on just a SF/SV salary, not even close.

deleted 9y ago

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schwap 9y ago

> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing that choice. Is there the opportunity to be 'more' secure in the States? Sure. But being a developer in Canada is hardly a bleak proposition.

ryanobjc 9y ago
If you are in Vancouver, isn't it though? Cost of home ownership at SF levels. Check. Salary to match? Nope. I used to love Vancouver, I went to school there. I wanted to stay. But I doubt I'd move back except to retire.
- justinhj 9y ago
  I've lived and worked in London, NY, SF but I settled in Vancouver. I don't own a home but I pay a modest rent for a house in a good part of the suburbs and I commute on world class public transportation. My salary would sound great compared to US salaries just a few years ago but the CAD has fallen since. Nevertheless it still buys a good quality of life in Vancouver. I'm proud of the values that people have here in Canada and I'm raising a family somewhere where I feel safe and welcome as an immigrant.
shados 9y ago
After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almost 30 years. The difference is absolutely absurd. And since a lot of things don't vary in price with the average cost of living (cars are not more expensive south of the border. Neither are smartphones or restaurants), it matters.
- cylinder 9y ago
  Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?

didibus 9y ago

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest difference. Most startup capitalize on the US market, and that's just easier and more accessible to do if you're US based. In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in Canada, even with a large family. But compared to certain US cities, it's abysmal. It's kind of crazy that in the US, a bachelor degree in CS can give you pay close to what doctors make. And a 9 month dev boot camp can have you earn similar to many university level degrees. I'm not sure this will last forever. My point being, it's unclear if Canada's pay for tech is too low, or if some US cities pay is too high.

canadian123456 9y ago
> I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. In cities where the pay lowers so does the cost of living. Canada will never get over the exchange rate + availability of goods in America. Canada is an amazing country to live in but America is great too when you have money.
- vkou 9y ago
  The cost of living in Vancouver is just as high as the cost of living in Seattle. This is after the Canadian dollar tanked. In fact, right now, the cost of buying a house in Seattle is much, much lower. Engineer wages in Seattle were ~30-100% higher - before the Canadian dollar tanked. Now they are ~50-160% higher.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    Vancouver is a bit of a special case because of how insane the property prices are there. It's like the Canadian SF, except without the job market.