3 ms·

Saying that such conversations are needed in the world in no way suggests that there is an onus on specific people to have them with every random asshole who bl

by Mz 9y ago

Saying that such conversations are needed in the world in no way suggests that there is an onus on specific people to have them with every random asshole who blurts something awful. There is a difference.

zepto 9y ago
Sure - but lots of well meaning people calmly say awful things too, and it's no different to be on the receiving end - maybe even worse.
- Mz 9y ago
  And if they genuinely are well meaning, they are usually open to getting some push back. It isn't necessary to hate on people in order to inform them "Well, that isn't how it works if you are X." One of the things that most opened my eyes to racism was when I was dealing with the DMV and it was incredibly frustrating. There seemed to be no means whatsoever to fix my issue. And then the black person at the counter walked over to their white boss and straightfacedly lied "She never got her bill." At that point, all I had to do was pay a late fee and, voila, my stint in DMV purgatory was over. (I had driven a thousand miles with expired plates to handle this debacle in person and was still hitting a wall until this person did that.) That clued me that blacks routinely deal with "Fuck you, no, it can't be solved" situations that are not the norm for white people. It made me vastly more informed and sympathetic. It did not make me feel alienated. I know far too many people on the internet who claim they want the world to be a better place, but by their actions it is clear that they take it as a given that the lord of the flies pecking order bs is just how the world works and cannot be solved. They just want to change who gets shit upon and gets to do the shitting. Is it any wonder that people in privileged positions aren't very friendly to their proposition that "No, YOU should be the designated toilet of the world, and I should be one of the people who gets to shit on you!" I would like to see a world in which we all agree that shitting on other people is not ok, no matter who they are.
  - zepto 9y ago
    Seems like you think that the legacy of slavery and institutionalized racism is equivalent to unkind words on the internet. Personally I'd only call one of these 'shitting on other people'.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Words on the internet really caused this heterosexual male some serious problems: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/11/having-sad.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/11/having-sad.h... Words on the internet and via text message probably helped drive this man to suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/06/10/michelle-carters-defense-boyfriend-googled-suicide-by-cop-before-killing-himself/?utm_term=.22ce953ced73 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/06/10... My mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." I don't see how taking your anger out on random strangers somehow fixes anything in your life.
      - zepto 9y ago
        By supporting your position with these examples, it sure seems like you are continuing to try to equate the two.
        Mz 9y ago
        By ignoring these two examples, it sure seems like you are continuing to justify a desire for revenge, which has nothing to do with trying to make life better in the here and now and in the future for women, poc, etc.
        zepto 9y ago
        For what it's worth - I think it's terrible when anyone kills themselves as a result of psychological suffering caused by another. Not only that but there are clearly examples of straight up murder by PoC and women. Claiming that because of this you get to dismiss the legacy of racism and institutionalized racism, is a straight up defense of racism and white supremacy. Nice job.
beat 9y ago
The flip side (based on my observations as a white male who actively engages in social justice) is that many women and minorities are so utterly sick and tired of harassment and obliviousness from white men that they simply have no patience for the engagement anymore. I can't say I blame them. I tire of the fight too - and I know it's my privilege that allows me to retreat when I'm tired of it. I really appreciate those who can stay active and upbeat when trying to educate the privileged, but I understand those who can't. I don't think I could.
- Mz 9y ago
  I tire of the fight too I really appreciate those who can stay active and upbeat when trying to educate the privileged, but I understand those who can't. I don't think I could. I am not looking for a fight. I am actively looking for a conversation, in good faith that is as respectful as possible from both sides, given that we are all human, we all have crappy days and stupid baggage and words on a screen are a very hard way to communicate. If I thought I was fighting some battle, I imagine I would tire of it too. And that is kind of the entire point of all my comments here. You aren't required to go looking for a fight in order to try to make the world a better place. In fact, you are probably going to be more successful if you stop approaching it that way.
  - zepto 9y ago
    So why did you start this by openly attacking women and PoC? "I am so sick of women and people of color being openly hateful to people who were born the "wrong" gender and color to be part of the unfortunate many." Seems like it's ok if you just slander and attack whole groups, but you aren't interested in a rebuttal which only attacks your statement and not your race or gender.
  - beat 9y ago
    Sometimes, it's a conversation, and that's great. Sometimes, it's a battle.

by Mz 9y ago

zepto 9y ago

Sure - but lots of well meaning people calmly say awful things too, and it's no different to be on the receiving end - maybe even worse.

Mz 9y ago
And if they genuinely are well meaning, they are usually open to getting some push back. It isn't necessary to hate on people in order to inform them "Well, that isn't how it works if you are X." One of the things that most opened my eyes to racism was when I was dealing with the DMV and it was incredibly frustrating. There seemed to be no means whatsoever to fix my issue. And then the black person at the counter walked over to their white boss and straightfacedly lied "She never got her bill." At that point, all I had to do was pay a late fee and, voila, my stint in DMV purgatory was over. (I had driven a thousand miles with expired plates to handle this debacle in person and was still hitting a wall until this person did that.) That clued me that blacks routinely deal with "Fuck you, no, it can't be solved" situations that are not the norm for white people. It made me vastly more informed and sympathetic. It did not make me feel alienated. I know far too many people on the internet who claim they want the world to be a better place, but by their actions it is clear that they take it as a given that the lord of the flies pecking order bs is just how the world works and cannot be solved. They just want to change who gets shit upon and gets to do the shitting. Is it any wonder that people in privileged positions aren't very friendly to their proposition that "No, YOU should be the designated toilet of the world, and I should be one of the people who gets to shit on you!" I would like to see a world in which we all agree that shitting on other people is not ok, no matter who they are.
- zepto 9y ago
  Seems like you think that the legacy of slavery and institutionalized racism is equivalent to unkind words on the internet. Personally I'd only call one of these 'shitting on other people'.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Words on the internet really caused this heterosexual male some serious problems: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/11/having-sad.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/11/having-sad.h... Words on the internet and via text message probably helped drive this man to suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/06/10/michelle-carters-defense-boyfriend-googled-suicide-by-cop-before-killing-himself/?utm_term=.22ce953ced73 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2017/06/10... My mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right." I don't see how taking your anger out on random strangers somehow fixes anything in your life.
    - zepto 9y ago
      By supporting your position with these examples, it sure seems like you are continuing to try to equate the two.
      - Mz 9y ago
        By ignoring these two examples, it sure seems like you are continuing to justify a desire for revenge, which has nothing to do with trying to make life better in the here and now and in the future for women, poc, etc.
        zepto 9y ago
        For what it's worth - I think it's terrible when anyone kills themselves as a result of psychological suffering caused by another. Not only that but there are clearly examples of straight up murder by PoC and women. Claiming that because of this you get to dismiss the legacy of racism and institutionalized racism, is a straight up defense of racism and white supremacy. Nice job.

beat 9y ago

The flip side (based on my observations as a white male who actively engages in social justice) is that many women and minorities are so utterly sick and tired of harassment and obliviousness from white men that they simply have no patience for the engagement anymore. I can't say I blame them. I tire of the fight too - and I know it's my privilege that allows me to retreat when I'm tired of it. I really appreciate those who can stay active and upbeat when trying to educate the privileged, but I understand those who can't. I don't think I could.

Mz 9y ago
I tire of the fight too I really appreciate those who can stay active and upbeat when trying to educate the privileged, but I understand those who can't. I don't think I could. I am not looking for a fight. I am actively looking for a conversation, in good faith that is as respectful as possible from both sides, given that we are all human, we all have crappy days and stupid baggage and words on a screen are a very hard way to communicate. If I thought I was fighting some battle, I imagine I would tire of it too. And that is kind of the entire point of all my comments here. You aren't required to go looking for a fight in order to try to make the world a better place. In fact, you are probably going to be more successful if you stop approaching it that way.
- zepto 9y ago
  So why did you start this by openly attacking women and PoC? "I am so sick of women and people of color being openly hateful to people who were born the "wrong" gender and color to be part of the unfortunate many." Seems like it's ok if you just slander and attack whole groups, but you aren't interested in a rebuttal which only attacks your statement and not your race or gender.
- beat 9y ago
  Sometimes, it's a conversation, and that's great. Sometimes, it's a battle.