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Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

160 points by agronaut 9y ago

majormjr 9y ago
Canada's Tech Firms will have to increase compensation if they want to attract talent from the US.
drspacemonkey 9y ago
While we could certainly pick up a few people, I can't see how it could possibly be more than a few unless Canada's tech firms start paying more. Source: developer in Vancouver who could easily get 2x the salary a 4 hour train ride south. I stay in Canada because it's my home.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dleslie 9y ago
  > I stay in Canada because it's my home. Likewise; all things considered, I consider the value of staying in Vancouver well worth the difference in salary to the USA. However, I prefer to work in video games, and in this industry compensation is shit basically everywhere.
- nasalgoat 9y ago
  For me, I don't qualify for a TN visa because I don't have a college degree. I could probably walk in off the street to most places in SF with my 20+ years of experience and triple my salary, but my visa eligibility leaves me here. There's lots of people in similar situations, so it's not impossible to find 10x devs up here, just more difficult than SF.
  - drspacemonkey 9y ago
    It's not every degree that grants TN eligibility, either. Software engineering degrees are eligible, CompSci are explicitly not eligible. So I'd be out, too. Though I could likely find a Seattle-based company willing to let me work remote most of the time. I could hop on the train once a month and AirBnB a place for a week, and many employers would be satisfied with that. It's what I'm considering next time I'm on the job hunt.
filereaper 9y ago
"Starting Monday, Canada's government says it will streamline the visa process so that international tech workers can get a work permit in just two weeks — compared to a complicated process in the U.S. that can take months." Excellent, we welcome world-class talent, you'll like it here.
eigenvector 9y ago
"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's travel ban and other immigration policies." Nope. Just trying to capitalize on people's fear and anxiety to avoid matching their competitors' pay.
- BrainInAJar 9y ago
  As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.
  - avaer 9y ago
    The last sentence here isn't self-consistent.
  - nacho2sweet 9y ago
    Yeah who the fuck wants to live in Waterloo Ontario when you can live in California? Lmao. Real Canadian Winter, and crap summer. Many of the devs worth their dime in Vancouver end up remote working when they get to the Sr. level. Get paid in USD, and for 25-30% more in a stronger currency. Works out to almost 60% more?! also if you aren't a city person you can then move to one of the gulf islands.
    - lacampbell 9y ago
      American companies routinely pay remote foreign workers at American rates? I find it a bit hard to believe.
personjerry 9y ago
I just can't believe tech companies in Canada don't realize/aren't willing to just pay the price for top engineers. Like, how can they be such cheapskates? One day I'll start a company in Waterloo and address this problem.
- Swizec 9y ago
  If it's anything like companies where I'm from, they'd love to pay correct global market salaries but they just aren't printing as much money. Maybe Canadian companies are different, but companies in Slovenia simply can't pay their engineers 150k salaries even if they wanted to. So many people move.
- acchow 9y ago
  Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money after hiring more.
  - personjerry 9y ago
    >Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money That is a pattern I've noticed in Canada in contrast to the US in fact; We settle for "good enough" or "profitable" but not the "moonshots" or strive to be "the best". Whether in tech, business, or even global influence, we are a "middle power" and we seem happy about it (my high school politics teacher explains that this is a result of constantly being the US's little brother). This makes me immensely unhappy, and I hope to make Canada more ambitious one day.
    - Tokkemon 9y ago
      I'm sure one could make the argument that if it wasn't the US, it was Great Britain's influence as well. Canada was always second-rate compared to England and they never let us forget it. It's ingrained into the psyche of all Canadians in some way. Also a century of political monotony didn't help.
kareemm 9y ago
Think Canadian salaries don't compete with US companies? Guess what happens when supply increases? Most other professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc) throttle supply through things like certification, but for some reason developers can't / don't want to get their act together to do the same. Even worse, they (we) welcome more supply! The mind boggles. And I say this as a Canadian employer who would certainly welcome more good developers at a lower price...
- drpgq 9y ago
  Yeah with the points system as it is, a big percentage of immigrants are tech workers so Canadian salaries were already lowered. Sadly it seems that the only way to become wealthy now in Canada is through real estate.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  Because software isn't a zero sum game. Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley. It means you get bigger companies doing bigger things with bigger success which means bigger quantities of cash whirling around up for grabs. Being the only plumber in town means you can charge whatever you want. Being the only developer in town means you're telecommuting and competing with Satyam.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    > Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley. I think we might be talking about two different Silicon Valleys. The one here in the real world has a glut of developers fighting for scraps. Companies that have the luxury of being extremely picky and only hiring the best. Lots of interviewing and so-called "open positions" but not a lot of hiring.
    - linkregister 9y ago
      I disagree; the nationwide median salary was $100,080; the bottom 10% earned less than $58,300. [1] The unemployment rate for Computer and Mathematical Occupations was about 2.0%. [2] Anecdotally, since a large part of someone's world view is by bad things that have happened to them, none of my friends from college are working outside of software. Some earn at the 10% spot in low cost-of-living areas, but they all are employed with enough money to get by. 1. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... 2. https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm Edit: this only holds true for the U.S.; unemployment for coders is probably far different in other countries.
binarymax 9y ago
"Starting Monday, Canada's government says it will streamline the visa process so that international tech workers can get a work permit in just two weeks — compared to a complicated process in the U.S. that can take months." I'm increasingly troubled by the notion that the only way one can move from one place to another, is by some contrived rule of value-add that person may offer. Aside from this new rule, Canada otherwise is a difficult country to gain entry to. The exclusivity of such movement is worse than outright border lockdown, because it essentially provides a validated classist bias against others.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  I guess Canadians are pretty happy with their country. Why should they not be picky about who they let in?
  - binarymax 9y ago
    Because the pickiness is a stereotype and a form of discrimination. EDIT - removed the "arbitrary", which I could argue for but for the purposes of the discussion concede. I stand by the rest of the claim despite the downvotes :)
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Is a company discriminating against you because they don't want to hire you because you don't have the skillset they are looking for?
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      I see a lot more negatives with allowing unchecked open borders than putting standards in place. Most of the negatives boil down to people not being able to live in whatever arbitrary place they want. I don't think personal preference should carry a whole lot of weight in the context of setting policy on who gets to cross your borders. Certainly not near as much weight as the load on local welfare systems, personal history, culture fit, and so forth.
anth1988 9y ago
> Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers. Competitive wages? > Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's travel ban and other immigration policies. Meanwhile, the Canadian government is making it easier for highly skilled workers to move there. oh. oh right. nevermind then.
ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
Not sure how exactly they are planning on "luring American tech workers" when they are paying much less on average, taxes are higher and real estate prices in large cities where these jobs are typically at are pretty insane compared to most of the US.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  Toronto and Vancouver are Canada's big insane housing markets. There are smaller tech communities in Ottawa, Waterloo, and Montreal, and those cities have normal housing markets.
  - pyre 9y ago
    PyCon Canada is coming to Montreal this year, and Montreal has the second largest Python user group in the world (IIRC). So these communities aren't necessarily short on tech.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - peeters 9y ago
    Well Kitchener-Waterloo had the highest year-over-year house price increase in Canada in April/May (40% year over year), so I wouldn't call it "normal", but all signs point to the housing market in Ontario cooling if not crashing, so it will never get to the point that Toronto and Vancouver are at.
  - anth1988 9y ago
    and will pay even less.
- geodel 9y ago
  They can get lot of tech workers who are third world natives. The workers will be still lot better off in Canada as compared to going back to India/China or some such in case of immigration troubles.
jankotek 9y ago
Could someone explain how taxation works in Canada (including VAT, compulsory insurances, council tax...). Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. edit: Here is a source for doubled tax, looks like google parser is wrong https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png
- Pxtl 9y ago
  > Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. reply This is not true, and was likely posted by a conservative hardliners. Canada uses an after-price sales tax like the USA, but in higher quantities - it will vary between 5% and 13% depending on province. Also, all provinces are currently implementing a carbon pricing system, so some provinces will have an additional sales tax on carbon intensive goods like gasoline. Unlike VAT, they're above the printed cost of the time, not included. These have been quite stable for a long time. Also, Canada has income tax. Like the Americans, we run on a graduated income tax system, where you pay no tax at all on the first $11,000ish dollars you earn, and then in each tax bracket you pay increasing percentages on the money that falls within that bracket. There has been modest increases in the highest tax brackets to pay for a cut in the second-lowest bracket. Also some "boutique" exemptions have been closed or reduced recently. In every case, there are taxes paid separately to both the federal government and provincial governments. The biggest rising expense here on Ontario is not taxes, but "hydro" which is what Canadians call electricity (so much of it is generated by hydroelectric dams and power companies market themselves as hydro companies because of it). Ontario has had a history of mismanaging electrical bills, and that process has come to a head and so energy prices have skyrocketed recently. While our taxes are normally somewhat higher than Americans, it hasn't been really a huge problem historically. Only now it's starting to come to a head with cost of living as the crazy housing market has driven mortgages through the roof and the hydro crisis have come together to create a cost-of-living problem in the Toronto area. Finally, we have municipal property taxes (comparable to British council taxes). These are priced based on the value of your real-estate property. These are generally stable, as councils are very price-sensitive and are hesitant to raise them outside of a crisis.
  - jankotek 9y ago
EternalData 9y ago
For those people who are talking about salaries in Canada versus salaries in the United States -- I don't have a dog to pick in the fight, but I think cost of living is a really important consideration when you're looking to evaluate compensation differences. Some people have put together prices and it came out that Toronto is about 31% cheaper to live in than SF. (https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-francisco/toronto https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-fra...). That adds up.
- fnbr 9y ago
  The salary differences are more than 31% though- you can see differences of 100% to 150% at the junior level (without adding in the exchange rate, which adds another 30% on top).
- ojbyrne 9y ago
  That seems to say beer & wine are cheaper in Canada, which is ludicrously wrong, to the point where I question the methodology.
- guiomie 9y ago
  Salary are usually 1.5 to 3 time higher. You can save much more money.
  - kspaans 9y ago
    Until you have to put kids through school or have a big medial emergency that isn't covered by your insurance.
    - refurb 9y ago
      There are very good public colleges in the US. They don't need to go to Harvard. Plus, if your kid in Canada wants to do medical school or dental school, you'll still be shelling out tens of thousands of dollars per year. As for medical care, most tech jobs have very good benefits. If you have a major medical problem, you might be out $5K before you hit your out of pocket max. The higher wages and lower taxes in the US mean you can easily handle it (but you do have to plan for it).
alphonsegaston 9y ago
While I agree with this sentiment overall, what pay differential can compensate for a more general stability? It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. And by the same token, almost no amount of pay (within the tech spectrum) could convince me to live in the cities in Texas where right-wing extremists are rallying outside mosques with assault rifles.
- kmicklas 9y ago
  > It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. I agree with this sentiment but if you have a high-paying tech job then you probably get insurance which won't bankrupt you in the case of a medical disaster. It's the ~90% of the rest of the population who has to worry.
  - alphonsegaston 9y ago
    I mean...maybe? I know of few American companies that aren't going to find away to get rid of you if you're out of work for an extended period of time because of a serious illness or accident. Labor rights are pretty poorly enforced in the US, and when they are, it's often dependent on you being able to mount and survive a costly legal challenge. People tell themselves they'll be ok, but it seems more like a gamble/survivorship bias to me.
    - kmicklas 9y ago
      True, if you lose your job and can't get on disability you're pretty screwed.
  - simlevesque 9y ago
    > get insurance which won't bankrupt you in the case of a medical disaster As I understand it (I live in Canada), you can subscribe to an insurance policy and they can refuse to give you the money for one reason or another.
Tokkemon 9y ago
Come on Canada. You're making me and all Canadians look bad.
sumitgt 9y ago
One reason that is often over-looked is the green card backlog issue in the US that affects tech workers from India/China. I'd easily make the choice to move to Canada where I can get a green card right away rather than wait 10 years for a green card in US. Salaries might be low, but one cannot put a $ amount on peace of mind.
- jamiek88 9y ago
  10 years? Unless you are an Indian PhD it's more like 60+ years. Basically becoming impossible. This coupled with H1B abuse has created a very difficult position for some people who are basically indentured.
- zodiac 9y ago
  Are you referring to Canadian permanent residency?
  - sumitgt 9y ago
    No, I meant US permanent residency which takes 10+ years in EB2. For Canada, one can easily get a PR via Express Entry. Which is why many people like me are strongly considering Canada irrespective of salary.
mywittyname 9y ago
My understanding from working with Canadian tech workers is the lure of Canada is that it is much easier to immigrate there than to the USA.
microcolonel 9y ago
Yeah, the media here have been deliberately exaggerating immigration uncertainty to draw attention. In the land of facts, salaries are lower here, and taxes are higher. Liberties are eroding, and the cost of living is skyrocketing. On the whole, you can work just as hard here for a whole number fraction of your salary, have less capital availability, and have less personal liberty. The best deal for the brilliant people at the U of T here is to leave, if we're talking about money and freedom. If we're talking about security, maybe a slight improvement for some kinds of people, but not all.
avaer 9y ago
The reason engineer salaries in Canada are low, especially for startups, isn't that companies are cheap. It's that there is no funding or support network for growing companies -- nothing compared to the valley. In my experience seed funding in Canada doesn't mean "this idea looks like it's on a promising growth trajectory, here's 100K for a bit of equity to see what we can make of it". Instead it means "show us $500K in revenue and we'll consider you for a loan next year". So what you have left are the smaller companies that happily feed their owner and not much else, or enterprise shops delivering established solutions in an established market for established rates (Canadian ones). And the companies that do well and grow: they just move to the valley, because they generally can, and they have every reason to. Source: I've lived both worlds.
- fnbr 9y ago
  Yup. Or, it's "here's 100k for 30% of your company." I have a friend who has been trying to raise for his company, and the expectations that investors have in terms of how much equity they want is much worse than in the US.
  - personjerry 9y ago
    Edit: Whoops, I read that as 100M :( That seems within reasonable bounds of a VC offer, am I wrong? If they expect to be valued much higher then they would probably be more well known (approaching unicorn realm) and would get SV interest anyway. And if they want to give less equity maybe they should find a earlier stage/smaller fund?
    - avaer 9y ago
      Objectively reasonable or not, subjectively a joke in comparison to SV. This kind of investment won't pay for one additional hire this year; if you go smaller it won't even pay for the time you spent dealfinding. And after all of that, this level of equity is a curse on your books that locks you out of SV VC. So if you actually grow you're still disadvantaged by such an offer. Lose lose. We can debate whether such an offer is reasonable. But taking this offer in favor of seeking funding in the valley... that's unreasonable.
sage76 9y ago
Poignant for me, I haven't been able to decide on where to move. US is still the big whale as far as tech opportunities go, but for Indians going there now, permanent residency is not possible within their lifetimes, with an 80+ year waiting time on the green card processing. Canada is far easier to permanently settle in, but the opportunities are far fewer, and salaries are lower too. I don't know what the answer is here.
- cylinder 9y ago
  You can get your Canadian citizenship after a few years, which allows you to use the TN status under NAFTA to work with relative ease in the US. As a bonus you have a backup in Canada should the US go south. It's a no brainer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- eigenvector 9y ago
  The path I've seen many immigrants take (particularly young people who don't mind re-settling twice) is move to Canada, live here for 3 years, get citizenship then move to the US on a TN visa. I would say 50% of the international students I knew in engineering school did this. As you probably know Canada is by far the easiest G7 country to be naturalized as a citizen. Others come to Canada with the intention of doing this and end up staying cause hey, life is pretty good in Canada and after 3 years you may have family ties here. The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job & visa and end up having to return to their original country.
  - sage76 9y ago
    > The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job & visa and end up having to return to their original country. Ouch, that sounds terrible. Yes, getting citizenship in Canada first seems like a good idea. Btw, it's not 3, it's 4 years. It's a sad commentary on the broken immigration system of the US, when it would be faster for me to get Canadian citizenship, and then switch to US citizenship than go directly for US citizenship. Though of course, I wonder if the US authorities would be able to find out I am switching citizenships like that, and cause issues. Do you know anyone who did this?
rb808 9y ago
I dont understand the hate on Canadian salaries. Its a safer, more liberal country that looks after its poorest. If you want cut throat lifestyle that pays the most - with the guy who cooked you dinner keeping one eye out for an ICE van, your ex-slaves in prison and some homeless guy going through your dumpster - you'll love the US. If you want to live a fairer society (Canada, France, Germany, Australia etc) don't complain about earning less.
- jankotek 9y ago
  Immigrants generally send money home to their families.
- goodcanadian 9y ago
  I don't think people would complain if it were only a little less for the benefits you describe, but the factor of three that is mentioned by other comments is not an exaggeration. It is one thing to take a pay cut of 20% to live in a "safer, more liberal country." It is quite another to take a pay cut of 70%. Right now, I am trying to move back to Canada. My goal is to get about 50% of the salary that I got at my last job in the U.S., and even that is looking very unlikely.
  - rb808 9y ago
    Sure but the second problem isn't the general level of salaries its that most countries dont have a city like the Bay Area or NYC. If you compare similar types of cities: Portland/Vancouver and Chicago/Toronto I dont think the salaries are 3x. (Though I get the point that this isn't consistent with my first comment)
    - canadian123456 9y ago
      Entry level for a really good engineer in Toronto is... 90k if we're optimistic & it's changed since I last looked last year? Entry level for a really good engineer in America is 185k+. Total compensation, obviously. That's before taking into account the volume of job opportunities, exchange rate, and access to goods and services.
martinni 9y ago
To me the bottom line is I can't be "part of the US". My personal values are not represented at all and I believe their leaders are making all the wrong choices.
pavement 9y ago
I bet a number of countries in addition to Canada find the current scenario highly beneficial.
- nandemo 9y ago
  Canada has some advantages: English is an official language, it already has a legal and administrative system in place to receive qualified immigrants from almost everywhere, and a public that's favorable to it. AFAIK the only other developed country that comes close is Australia.
known 9y ago
Why startups condense in America? paulgraham.com/america.html and bloom.bg/1O04ymn

160 points by agronaut 9y ago

Canada's Tech Firms will have to increase compensation if they want to attract talent from the US.

While we could certainly pick up a few people, I can't see how it could possibly be more than a few unless Canada's tech firms start paying more. Source: developer in Vancouver who could easily get 2x the salary a 4 hour train ride south. I stay in Canada because it's my home.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dleslie 9y ago
> I stay in Canada because it's my home. Likewise; all things considered, I consider the value of staying in Vancouver well worth the difference in salary to the USA. However, I prefer to work in video games, and in this industry compensation is shit basically everywhere.
nasalgoat 9y ago
For me, I don't qualify for a TN visa because I don't have a college degree. I could probably walk in off the street to most places in SF with my 20+ years of experience and triple my salary, but my visa eligibility leaves me here. There's lots of people in similar situations, so it's not impossible to find 10x devs up here, just more difficult than SF.
- drspacemonkey 9y ago
  It's not every degree that grants TN eligibility, either. Software engineering degrees are eligible, CompSci are explicitly not eligible. So I'd be out, too. Though I could likely find a Seattle-based company willing to let me work remote most of the time. I could hop on the train once a month and AirBnB a place for a week, and many employers would be satisfied with that. It's what I'm considering next time I'm on the job hunt.

filereaper 9y ago

eigenvector 9y ago

"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's travel ban and other immigration policies." Nope. Just trying to capitalize on people's fear and anxiety to avoid matching their competitors' pay.

BrainInAJar 9y ago
As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.
- avaer 9y ago
  The last sentence here isn't self-consistent.
- nacho2sweet 9y ago
  Yeah who the fuck wants to live in Waterloo Ontario when you can live in California? Lmao. Real Canadian Winter, and crap summer. Many of the devs worth their dime in Vancouver end up remote working when they get to the Sr. level. Get paid in USD, and for 25-30% more in a stronger currency. Works out to almost 60% more?! also if you aren't a city person you can then move to one of the gulf islands.
  - lacampbell 9y ago
    American companies routinely pay remote foreign workers at American rates? I find it a bit hard to believe.

personjerry 9y ago

I just can't believe tech companies in Canada don't realize/aren't willing to just pay the price for top engineers. Like, how can they be such cheapskates? One day I'll start a company in Waterloo and address this problem.

Swizec 9y ago
If it's anything like companies where I'm from, they'd love to pay correct global market salaries but they just aren't printing as much money. Maybe Canadian companies are different, but companies in Slovenia simply can't pay their engineers 150k salaries even if they wanted to. So many people move.
acchow 9y ago
Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money after hiring more.
- personjerry 9y ago
  >Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money That is a pattern I've noticed in Canada in contrast to the US in fact; We settle for "good enough" or "profitable" but not the "moonshots" or strive to be "the best". Whether in tech, business, or even global influence, we are a "middle power" and we seem happy about it (my high school politics teacher explains that this is a result of constantly being the US's little brother). This makes me immensely unhappy, and I hope to make Canada more ambitious one day.
  - Tokkemon 9y ago
    I'm sure one could make the argument that if it wasn't the US, it was Great Britain's influence as well. Canada was always second-rate compared to England and they never let us forget it. It's ingrained into the psyche of all Canadians in some way. Also a century of political monotony didn't help.

kareemm 9y ago

Think Canadian salaries don't compete with US companies? Guess what happens when supply increases? Most other professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc) throttle supply through things like certification, but for some reason developers can't / don't want to get their act together to do the same. Even worse, they (we) welcome more supply! The mind boggles. And I say this as a Canadian employer who would certainly welcome more good developers at a lower price...

drpgq 9y ago
Yeah with the points system as it is, a big percentage of immigrants are tech workers so Canadian salaries were already lowered. Sadly it seems that the only way to become wealthy now in Canada is through real estate.
Pxtl 9y ago
Because software isn't a zero sum game. Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley. It means you get bigger companies doing bigger things with bigger success which means bigger quantities of cash whirling around up for grabs. Being the only plumber in town means you can charge whatever you want. Being the only developer in town means you're telecommuting and competing with Satyam.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  > Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley. I think we might be talking about two different Silicon Valleys. The one here in the real world has a glut of developers fighting for scraps. Companies that have the luxury of being extremely picky and only hiring the best. Lots of interviewing and so-called "open positions" but not a lot of hiring.
  - linkregister 9y ago
    I disagree; the nationwide median salary was $100,080; the bottom 10% earned less than $58,300. [1] The unemployment rate for Computer and Mathematical Occupations was about 2.0%. [2] Anecdotally, since a large part of someone's world view is by bad things that have happened to them, none of my friends from college are working outside of software. Some earn at the 10% spot in low cost-of-living areas, but they all are employed with enough money to get by. 1. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... 2. https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea30.htm Edit: this only holds true for the U.S.; unemployment for coders is probably far different in other countries.

binarymax 9y ago

"Starting Monday, Canada's government says it will streamline the visa process so that international tech workers can get a work permit in just two weeks — compared to a complicated process in the U.S. that can take months." I'm increasingly troubled by the notion that the only way one can move from one place to another, is by some contrived rule of value-add that person may offer. Aside from this new rule, Canada otherwise is a difficult country to gain entry to. The exclusivity of such movement is worse than outright border lockdown, because it essentially provides a validated classist bias against others.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
I guess Canadians are pretty happy with their country. Why should they not be picky about who they let in?
- binarymax 9y ago
  Because the pickiness is a stereotype and a form of discrimination. EDIT - removed the "arbitrary", which I could argue for but for the purposes of the discussion concede. I stand by the rest of the claim despite the downvotes :)
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Is a company discriminating against you because they don't want to hire you because you don't have the skillset they are looking for?
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    I see a lot more negatives with allowing unchecked open borders than putting standards in place. Most of the negatives boil down to people not being able to live in whatever arbitrary place they want. I don't think personal preference should carry a whole lot of weight in the context of setting policy on who gets to cross your borders. Certainly not near as much weight as the load on local welfare systems, personal history, culture fit, and so forth.

anth1988 9y ago

> Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers. Competitive wages? > Canadian tech companies are eager to capitalize on anxiety among international visitors and would-be immigrants following President Trump's travel ban and other immigration policies. Meanwhile, the Canadian government is making it easier for highly skilled workers to move there. oh. oh right. nevermind then.

ChemicalWarfare 9y ago

Not sure how exactly they are planning on "luring American tech workers" when they are paying much less on average, taxes are higher and real estate prices in large cities where these jobs are typically at are pretty insane compared to most of the US.

Pxtl 9y ago
Toronto and Vancouver are Canada's big insane housing markets. There are smaller tech communities in Ottawa, Waterloo, and Montreal, and those cities have normal housing markets.
- pyre 9y ago
  PyCon Canada is coming to Montreal this year, and Montreal has the second largest Python user group in the world (IIRC). So these communities aren't necessarily short on tech.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- peeters 9y ago
  Well Kitchener-Waterloo had the highest year-over-year house price increase in Canada in April/May (40% year over year), so I wouldn't call it "normal", but all signs point to the housing market in Ontario cooling if not crashing, so it will never get to the point that Toronto and Vancouver are at.
- anth1988 9y ago
  and will pay even less.
geodel 9y ago
They can get lot of tech workers who are third world natives. The workers will be still lot better off in Canada as compared to going back to India/China or some such in case of immigration troubles.

jankotek 9y ago

Could someone explain how taxation works in Canada (including VAT, compulsory insurances, council tax...). Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. edit: Here is a source for doubled tax, looks like google parser is wrong https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png https://pasteboard.co/hMazP1hHs.png

Pxtl 9y ago
> Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. reply This is not true, and was likely posted by a conservative hardliners. Canada uses an after-price sales tax like the USA, but in higher quantities - it will vary between 5% and 13% depending on province. Also, all provinces are currently implementing a carbon pricing system, so some provinces will have an additional sales tax on carbon intensive goods like gasoline. Unlike VAT, they're above the printed cost of the time, not included. These have been quite stable for a long time. Also, Canada has income tax. Like the Americans, we run on a graduated income tax system, where you pay no tax at all on the first $11,000ish dollars you earn, and then in each tax bracket you pay increasing percentages on the money that falls within that bracket. There has been modest increases in the highest tax brackets to pay for a cut in the second-lowest bracket. Also some "boutique" exemptions have been closed or reduced recently. In every case, there are taxes paid separately to both the federal government and provincial governments. The biggest rising expense here on Ontario is not taxes, but "hydro" which is what Canadians call electricity (so much of it is generated by hydroelectric dams and power companies market themselves as hydro companies because of it). Ontario has had a history of mismanaging electrical bills, and that process has come to a head and so energy prices have skyrocketed recently. While our taxes are normally somewhat higher than Americans, it hasn't been really a huge problem historically. Only now it's starting to come to a head with cost of living as the crazy housing market has driven mortgages through the roof and the hydro crisis have come together to create a cost-of-living problem in the Toronto area. Finally, we have municipal property taxes (comparable to British council taxes). These are priced based on the value of your real-estate property. These are generally stable, as councils are very price-sensitive and are hesitant to raise them outside of a crisis.
- jankotek 9y ago

EternalData 9y ago

For those people who are talking about salaries in Canada versus salaries in the United States -- I don't have a dog to pick in the fight, but I think cost of living is a really important consideration when you're looking to evaluate compensation differences. Some people have put together prices and it came out that Toronto is about 31% cheaper to live in than SF. (https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-francisco/toronto https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-fra...). That adds up.

fnbr 9y ago
The salary differences are more than 31% though- you can see differences of 100% to 150% at the junior level (without adding in the exchange rate, which adds another 30% on top).
ojbyrne 9y ago
That seems to say beer & wine are cheaper in Canada, which is ludicrously wrong, to the point where I question the methodology.
guiomie 9y ago
Salary are usually 1.5 to 3 time higher. You can save much more money.
- kspaans 9y ago
  Until you have to put kids through school or have a big medial emergency that isn't covered by your insurance.
  - refurb 9y ago
    There are very good public colleges in the US. They don't need to go to Harvard. Plus, if your kid in Canada wants to do medical school or dental school, you'll still be shelling out tens of thousands of dollars per year. As for medical care, most tech jobs have very good benefits. If you have a major medical problem, you might be out $5K before you hit your out of pocket max. The higher wages and lower taxes in the US mean you can easily handle it (but you do have to plan for it).

alphonsegaston 9y ago

While I agree with this sentiment overall, what pay differential can compensate for a more general stability? It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. And by the same token, almost no amount of pay (within the tech spectrum) could convince me to live in the cities in Texas where right-wing extremists are rallying outside mosques with assault rifles.

kmicklas 9y ago
> It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. I agree with this sentiment but if you have a high-paying tech job then you probably get insurance which won't bankrupt you in the case of a medical disaster. It's the ~90% of the rest of the population who has to worry.
- alphonsegaston 9y ago
  I mean...maybe? I know of few American companies that aren't going to find away to get rid of you if you're out of work for an extended period of time because of a serious illness or accident. Labor rights are pretty poorly enforced in the US, and when they are, it's often dependent on you being able to mount and survive a costly legal challenge. People tell themselves they'll be ok, but it seems more like a gamble/survivorship bias to me.
  - kmicklas 9y ago
    True, if you lose your job and can't get on disability you're pretty screwed.
- simlevesque 9y ago
  > get insurance which won't bankrupt you in the case of a medical disaster As I understand it (I live in Canada), you can subscribe to an insurance policy and they can refuse to give you the money for one reason or another.

Tokkemon 9y ago

Come on Canada. You're making me and all Canadians look bad.

sumitgt 9y ago

One reason that is often over-looked is the green card backlog issue in the US that affects tech workers from India/China. I'd easily make the choice to move to Canada where I can get a green card right away rather than wait 10 years for a green card in US. Salaries might be low, but one cannot put a $ amount on peace of mind.

jamiek88 9y ago
10 years? Unless you are an Indian PhD it's more like 60+ years. Basically becoming impossible. This coupled with H1B abuse has created a very difficult position for some people who are basically indentured.
zodiac 9y ago
Are you referring to Canadian permanent residency?
- sumitgt 9y ago
  No, I meant US permanent residency which takes 10+ years in EB2. For Canada, one can easily get a PR via Express Entry. Which is why many people like me are strongly considering Canada irrespective of salary.

mywittyname 9y ago

My understanding from working with Canadian tech workers is the lure of Canada is that it is much easier to immigrate there than to the USA.

microcolonel 9y ago

Yeah, the media here have been deliberately exaggerating immigration uncertainty to draw attention. In the land of facts, salaries are lower here, and taxes are higher. Liberties are eroding, and the cost of living is skyrocketing. On the whole, you can work just as hard here for a whole number fraction of your salary, have less capital availability, and have less personal liberty. The best deal for the brilliant people at the U of T here is to leave, if we're talking about money and freedom. If we're talking about security, maybe a slight improvement for some kinds of people, but not all.

avaer 9y ago

The reason engineer salaries in Canada are low, especially for startups, isn't that companies are cheap. It's that there is no funding or support network for growing companies -- nothing compared to the valley. In my experience seed funding in Canada doesn't mean "this idea looks like it's on a promising growth trajectory, here's 100K for a bit of equity to see what we can make of it". Instead it means "show us $500K in revenue and we'll consider you for a loan next year". So what you have left are the smaller companies that happily feed their owner and not much else, or enterprise shops delivering established solutions in an established market for established rates (Canadian ones). And the companies that do well and grow: they just move to the valley, because they generally can, and they have every reason to. Source: I've lived both worlds.

fnbr 9y ago
Yup. Or, it's "here's 100k for 30% of your company." I have a friend who has been trying to raise for his company, and the expectations that investors have in terms of how much equity they want is much worse than in the US.
- personjerry 9y ago
  Edit: Whoops, I read that as 100M :( That seems within reasonable bounds of a VC offer, am I wrong? If they expect to be valued much higher then they would probably be more well known (approaching unicorn realm) and would get SV interest anyway. And if they want to give less equity maybe they should find a earlier stage/smaller fund?
  - avaer 9y ago
    Objectively reasonable or not, subjectively a joke in comparison to SV. This kind of investment won't pay for one additional hire this year; if you go smaller it won't even pay for the time you spent dealfinding. And after all of that, this level of equity is a curse on your books that locks you out of SV VC. So if you actually grow you're still disadvantaged by such an offer. Lose lose. We can debate whether such an offer is reasonable. But taking this offer in favor of seeking funding in the valley... that's unreasonable.

sage76 9y ago

Poignant for me, I haven't been able to decide on where to move. US is still the big whale as far as tech opportunities go, but for Indians going there now, permanent residency is not possible within their lifetimes, with an 80+ year waiting time on the green card processing. Canada is far easier to permanently settle in, but the opportunities are far fewer, and salaries are lower too. I don't know what the answer is here.

cylinder 9y ago
You can get your Canadian citizenship after a few years, which allows you to use the TN status under NAFTA to work with relative ease in the US. As a bonus you have a backup in Canada should the US go south. It's a no brainer.
deleted 9y ago
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eigenvector 9y ago
The path I've seen many immigrants take (particularly young people who don't mind re-settling twice) is move to Canada, live here for 3 years, get citizenship then move to the US on a TN visa. I would say 50% of the international students I knew in engineering school did this. As you probably know Canada is by far the easiest G7 country to be naturalized as a citizen. Others come to Canada with the intention of doing this and end up staying cause hey, life is pretty good in Canada and after 3 years you may have family ties here. The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job & visa and end up having to return to their original country.
- sage76 9y ago
  > The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job & visa and end up having to return to their original country. Ouch, that sounds terrible. Yes, getting citizenship in Canada first seems like a good idea. Btw, it's not 3, it's 4 years. It's a sad commentary on the broken immigration system of the US, when it would be faster for me to get Canadian citizenship, and then switch to US citizenship than go directly for US citizenship. Though of course, I wonder if the US authorities would be able to find out I am switching citizenships like that, and cause issues. Do you know anyone who did this?

rb808 9y ago

I dont understand the hate on Canadian salaries. Its a safer, more liberal country that looks after its poorest. If you want cut throat lifestyle that pays the most - with the guy who cooked you dinner keeping one eye out for an ICE van, your ex-slaves in prison and some homeless guy going through your dumpster - you'll love the US. If you want to live a fairer society (Canada, France, Germany, Australia etc) don't complain about earning less.

jankotek 9y ago
Immigrants generally send money home to their families.
goodcanadian 9y ago
I don't think people would complain if it were only a little less for the benefits you describe, but the factor of three that is mentioned by other comments is not an exaggeration. It is one thing to take a pay cut of 20% to live in a "safer, more liberal country." It is quite another to take a pay cut of 70%. Right now, I am trying to move back to Canada. My goal is to get about 50% of the salary that I got at my last job in the U.S., and even that is looking very unlikely.
- rb808 9y ago
  Sure but the second problem isn't the general level of salaries its that most countries dont have a city like the Bay Area or NYC. If you compare similar types of cities: Portland/Vancouver and Chicago/Toronto I dont think the salaries are 3x. (Though I get the point that this isn't consistent with my first comment)
  - canadian123456 9y ago
    Entry level for a really good engineer in Toronto is... 90k if we're optimistic & it's changed since I last looked last year? Entry level for a really good engineer in America is 185k+. Total compensation, obviously. That's before taking into account the volume of job opportunities, exchange rate, and access to goods and services.

martinni 9y ago

To me the bottom line is I can't be "part of the US". My personal values are not represented at all and I believe their leaders are making all the wrong choices.

pavement 9y ago

I bet a number of countries in addition to Canada find the current scenario highly beneficial.

nandemo 9y ago
Canada has some advantages: English is an official language, it already has a legal and administrative system in place to receive qualified immigrants from almost everywhere, and a public that's favorable to it. AFAIK the only other developed country that comes close is Australia.

known 9y ago

Why startups condense in America? paulgraham.com/america.html and bloom.bg/1O04ymn