4 ms·

If your organization can't encourage frank discussion about workplace issues without a venue for employees to drug themselves, you probably have more important

by ABCLAW 9y ago

If your organization can't encourage frank discussion about workplace issues without a venue for employees to drug themselves, you probably have more important problems to dive into. More importantly, if you lean on off-site drinking as your method to get real feedback and communication, you probably have less incentive to fix your workplace culture in the first place.

asdqwwwww 9y ago
Congratulations on missing OPs point. Completely. A bar is a pretty standard watering hole where you go to complain about things you'd like to complain about off the record. Maybe the problem is annoying and not fixable, e.g. "this framework sucks", or the problem is with with the industry, e.g. "diversity shouldn't be priority over merit". Both of these problems don't really belong in a "realtime feedback and communication" system because they can't be fixed through the proper channels. The second one especially, where voicing that opinion in SV will get you hung on a cross outside Google HQ. The bar provides a cathartic release so you don't explode at work on problems you can't fix. Why do you think people stop at the bar before going home? Most of them aren't alcoholics, they just don't want to bring unfixable problems home, and face it, complaining _feels_ good.
- ABCLAW 9y ago
  If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode. I have drinks with my work buddies because I like catching up with them and sometimes we're too busy at work to shoot the shit. I don't think anyone has an issue with a few co-workers occasionally grabbing a brew after work. The problem is when people feel pressured to do so because the post-work ritual is replacing actual candid work discussion. Why? Well, its pretty simple. Not everyone drinks. Not everyone has the time to grab a drink after work. Not everyone feels comfortable in a bar around intoxicated co-workers. There's a marked difference between a few co-workers grabbing a beer occasionally and friday night pints being the only place you can discuss problems you're facing at work.
  - asdqwwwww 9y ago
    > Implying you have to drink at a bar > If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode Second to the above - thanks for getting semantic with me. I don't see how a bar excludes any of these people. Maybe where you live they check green cards and do ultrasounds at the door, but where I live anyone can walk into a bar and not feel compelled to drink. You seem to be really up on the inclusion game though. Why shouldn't people be excluded from certain conversations? Should I invite everyone to my complain fest about a framework they love because I hate it? I can't just leave my job, so I go to a "place" (since you seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol) with "receptive people" (since you seem to think exclusion implies leaving out minorities) that can assure me I'm not alone in this world. Additionally I drink at that bar because an ice cold pint at the end of the day is great and it's a thing we all have a common. I don't drink so I don't "explode". I'm really regretting using that word because people like you fixate on minutiae so you don't have to argue an actual point. I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think are you are. Everyone "winds down" some way. I prefer the bar, some people prefer a picnic at the park. There's a bar down the street from work where I can complain with people friendly to my cause about things that bother us. I don't see why this is such a problem. It's almost like you're discouraging human interaction in the name of this ambiguous spectre that haunts SV - "inclusion at all costs".
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      Oddly personal response. "Thanks for getting semantic with me", "People like you", "You seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol", "I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think you are" Again, I don't care if people grab a brew after work. I care if an organization's culture excludes those who don't. Since the topic seems a bit close to home, imagine this: you work at a start-up and the founder only seeks frank input about how things are going during weekend sailing regattas. The two teams that are led by sailors keep having their roadblocks removed, while the rest aren't. Comparisons between the sailor led teams and the others are driving negative performance reviews for the teams you're a part of. Do you think this is healthy for the company?
- VLM 9y ago
  There is no "off the record" in meat space. Its scarier out there than online, and online is scary enough. In smaller parts of the country the pool is smaller and everyone knows everyone eventually so trash talking will get reported. There are ways to fix political (or religious) oppression problems, but none of the solutions involve or enhanced by intoxication. "Most of them aren't alcoholics" Can't get thru life without a bottle? The bottle feels better than real life? Might want to talk it over with someone.
- hinkley 9y ago
  I can see both sides of this. I've had managers who wanted to go to every. single. fucking. meeting. And not just direct managers. We told them no, you're not invited. Why? Because candor is an important part of the development process (some things have to be off the record first). Strictly speaking, I shouldn't have to say that to anybody. Practically speaking, there are a hundred things that have to go right for a project or team to work and nobody knows all of them. But some people are willfully ignorant because what they really want is a fiefdom and not a team.
Raphmedia 9y ago
> without a venue for employees to drug themselve Order a non-alcoholic beverage? When I go to the bar with coworkers to talk and vent about the workplace it's not to be drunk and make a fool of myself in front of everyone. Drink a beer or a cocktail if you enjoy them but otherwise order a soda / a delicious non-alcoholic cocktail or simply order food and eat your meal. It's not as if people were hitting divebars with their coworkers, getting totally drunk and high on drugs. While those things can happen it's generally way past the 5-7 you are expected to be at.
- ABCLAW 9y ago
  Your position feels a lot like "why wouldn't they adapt to fit my preferred way to socialize and blow off steam?" When the default fits you, it sure is attractive to advance that idea! But what happens when you aren't? Is the default of going out after work conducive to someone who needs to pick up their kid after work? Is it conducive to someone who can't or won't drink? etc. What if those workers just want to solve some cool work problems? What happens when the default is so socially required that they're hindered from doing cool work stuff unless they participate? If that happens, you have a cultural problem.
  - lmm 9y ago
    Any culture will exclude some people, because not all cultures are alike and not everyone tolerates a culture unlike their own. You can go for the blandest possible culture to minimise the exclusions, but that's a lot like having no culture and results in a virtually asocial workplace, which is neither the kind of place I want to work, nor what my experience suggests is productive. Not every workplace can be the right place for absolutely everyone; it's worth putting some effort into accommodating people and meeting them halfway, but socialising is too valuable to be worth giving up entirely.
  - shaklee3 9y ago
    What other social setting are you proposing?
    - 9y ago
solatic 9y ago
Forget about the fact that the place under discussion is a bar for a second. The important bit is getting off-campus together outside of work hours. Sure, you can talk about these things in team-wide meetings. You can also have formal meetings specifically to periodically re-evaluate various bits and pieces of your workplace, not to mention regular townhall meetings, "working" meetings (which are either a symbol of overwork/overplanning or of lack of trust), standup meetings, backlog grooming meetings, retrospectives of all kinds. Back in the military we had a joke about having a retrospective meeting to discuss how the last retrospective meeting went. Each one of these meetings can be thought of as being "productive" in some way, but soon enough, you see that you're spending 80%+ of your time in meetings and nothing is getting done. Off-campus get-togethers intentionally dismiss any aims of productivity, instead trying to help the team gel. Which is incredibly important. If your team can't adapt to the preferences of the team members not to go to a bar, then that's not a problem with bars, that's a problem with your team (and more specifically, the person leading it). If you join a team which cannot agree on a common-interest, enjoyable, occasional evening venue, then that team has either grown too large and needs to be split up, or management screwed up by putting people together who are deeply incompatible with each other and need to be on different teams which are supportive in their own ways so that each can reach their full potential separately.

by ABCLAW 9y ago

asdqwwwww 9y ago

Congratulations on missing OPs point. Completely. A bar is a pretty standard watering hole where you go to complain about things you'd like to complain about off the record. Maybe the problem is annoying and not fixable, e.g. "this framework sucks", or the problem is with with the industry, e.g. "diversity shouldn't be priority over merit". Both of these problems don't really belong in a "realtime feedback and communication" system because they can't be fixed through the proper channels. The second one especially, where voicing that opinion in SV will get you hung on a cross outside Google HQ. The bar provides a cathartic release so you don't explode at work on problems you can't fix. Why do you think people stop at the bar before going home? Most of them aren't alcoholics, they just don't want to bring unfixable problems home, and face it, complaining _feels_ good.

ABCLAW 9y ago
If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode. I have drinks with my work buddies because I like catching up with them and sometimes we're too busy at work to shoot the shit. I don't think anyone has an issue with a few co-workers occasionally grabbing a brew after work. The problem is when people feel pressured to do so because the post-work ritual is replacing actual candid work discussion. Why? Well, its pretty simple. Not everyone drinks. Not everyone has the time to grab a drink after work. Not everyone feels comfortable in a bar around intoxicated co-workers. There's a marked difference between a few co-workers grabbing a beer occasionally and friday night pints being the only place you can discuss problems you're facing at work.
- asdqwwwww 9y ago
  > Implying you have to drink at a bar > If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode Second to the above - thanks for getting semantic with me. I don't see how a bar excludes any of these people. Maybe where you live they check green cards and do ultrasounds at the door, but where I live anyone can walk into a bar and not feel compelled to drink. You seem to be really up on the inclusion game though. Why shouldn't people be excluded from certain conversations? Should I invite everyone to my complain fest about a framework they love because I hate it? I can't just leave my job, so I go to a "place" (since you seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol) with "receptive people" (since you seem to think exclusion implies leaving out minorities) that can assure me I'm not alone in this world. Additionally I drink at that bar because an ice cold pint at the end of the day is great and it's a thing we all have a common. I don't drink so I don't "explode". I'm really regretting using that word because people like you fixate on minutiae so you don't have to argue an actual point. I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think are you are. Everyone "winds down" some way. I prefer the bar, some people prefer a picnic at the park. There's a bar down the street from work where I can complain with people friendly to my cause about things that bother us. I don't see why this is such a problem. It's almost like you're discouraging human interaction in the name of this ambiguous spectre that haunts SV - "inclusion at all costs".
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    Oddly personal response. "Thanks for getting semantic with me", "People like you", "You seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol", "I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think you are" Again, I don't care if people grab a brew after work. I care if an organization's culture excludes those who don't. Since the topic seems a bit close to home, imagine this: you work at a start-up and the founder only seeks frank input about how things are going during weekend sailing regattas. The two teams that are led by sailors keep having their roadblocks removed, while the rest aren't. Comparisons between the sailor led teams and the others are driving negative performance reviews for the teams you're a part of. Do you think this is healthy for the company?
VLM 9y ago
There is no "off the record" in meat space. Its scarier out there than online, and online is scary enough. In smaller parts of the country the pool is smaller and everyone knows everyone eventually so trash talking will get reported. There are ways to fix political (or religious) oppression problems, but none of the solutions involve or enhanced by intoxication. "Most of them aren't alcoholics" Can't get thru life without a bottle? The bottle feels better than real life? Might want to talk it over with someone.
hinkley 9y ago
I can see both sides of this. I've had managers who wanted to go to every. single. fucking. meeting. And not just direct managers. We told them no, you're not invited. Why? Because candor is an important part of the development process (some things have to be off the record first). Strictly speaking, I shouldn't have to say that to anybody. Practically speaking, there are a hundred things that have to go right for a project or team to work and nobody knows all of them. But some people are willfully ignorant because what they really want is a fiefdom and not a team.

Raphmedia 9y ago

> without a venue for employees to drug themselve Order a non-alcoholic beverage? When I go to the bar with coworkers to talk and vent about the workplace it's not to be drunk and make a fool of myself in front of everyone. Drink a beer or a cocktail if you enjoy them but otherwise order a soda / a delicious non-alcoholic cocktail or simply order food and eat your meal. It's not as if people were hitting divebars with their coworkers, getting totally drunk and high on drugs. While those things can happen it's generally way past the 5-7 you are expected to be at.

ABCLAW 9y ago
Your position feels a lot like "why wouldn't they adapt to fit my preferred way to socialize and blow off steam?" When the default fits you, it sure is attractive to advance that idea! But what happens when you aren't? Is the default of going out after work conducive to someone who needs to pick up their kid after work? Is it conducive to someone who can't or won't drink? etc. What if those workers just want to solve some cool work problems? What happens when the default is so socially required that they're hindered from doing cool work stuff unless they participate? If that happens, you have a cultural problem.
- lmm 9y ago
  Any culture will exclude some people, because not all cultures are alike and not everyone tolerates a culture unlike their own. You can go for the blandest possible culture to minimise the exclusions, but that's a lot like having no culture and results in a virtually asocial workplace, which is neither the kind of place I want to work, nor what my experience suggests is productive. Not every workplace can be the right place for absolutely everyone; it's worth putting some effort into accommodating people and meeting them halfway, but socialising is too valuable to be worth giving up entirely.
- shaklee3 9y ago
  What other social setting are you proposing?
  - 9y ago

solatic 9y ago

Forget about the fact that the place under discussion is a bar for a second. The important bit is getting off-campus together outside of work hours. Sure, you can talk about these things in team-wide meetings. You can also have formal meetings specifically to periodically re-evaluate various bits and pieces of your workplace, not to mention regular townhall meetings, "working" meetings (which are either a symbol of overwork/overplanning or of lack of trust), standup meetings, backlog grooming meetings, retrospectives of all kinds. Back in the military we had a joke about having a retrospective meeting to discuss how the last retrospective meeting went. Each one of these meetings can be thought of as being "productive" in some way, but soon enough, you see that you're spending 80%+ of your time in meetings and nothing is getting done. Off-campus get-togethers intentionally dismiss any aims of productivity, instead trying to help the team gel. Which is incredibly important. If your team can't adapt to the preferences of the team members not to go to a bar, then that's not a problem with bars, that's a problem with your team (and more specifically, the person leading it). If you join a team which cannot agree on a common-interest, enjoyable, occasional evening venue, then that team has either grown too large and needs to be split up, or management screwed up by putting people together who are deeply incompatible with each other and need to be on different teams which are supportive in their own ways so that each can reach their full potential separately.