8 ms·

Overall good post, but: Yesterday, I had a wide-ranging Slack conversation with some very nice people who patiently allowed this privileged white male to repea

by Mz 9y ago

Overall good post, but: Yesterday, I had a wide-ranging Slack conversation with some very nice people who patiently allowed this privileged white male to repeatedly touch the third rail of diversity and inclusion. That conversation led me to the realizations in this post. I’ll thank them by not naming them, and by promising never to bring this up in their Slack channel again. In other words, people openly hated on him for wanting to discuss something with them and get informed -- a white male in a position of power that few women or poc occupy. And all they can do is make him scared to bring it up again and act like the abuse they heaped upon him is some sort of privilege he didn't deserve or something. Wow. I am so sick of women and people of color being openly hateful to people who were born the "wrong" gender and color to be part of the unfortunate many. Hello? Whining about how "it isn't my job to explain this stuff to you!" instead of being all "OMG! An opportunity to have a useful conversation with a white male who is actually curious about how the so-called other half live!" is part of the problem, not part of the solution. (Before you auto-downvote this on the assumption that I am some overprivileged asshole man, please note I am a woman.)

cname 9y ago
How did you get from "very nice people" to "hateful" and "whiny"?
alew1 9y ago
You're making a lot of assumptions for someone who hasn't seen that Slack conversation.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  Straw feminists are frightening.
  - Mz 9y ago
    I don't self identify as a feminist. So if you mean me, you are in error.
    - erikpukinskis 9y ago
      Straw feminists are fictional feminists that live in hypothetical situations like your parent's comment. http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341 http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341
      - Mz 9y ago
        Well, I feel a tad lost (in terms of what you were intending with your remark), but count me educated. Thank you for the link.
        erikpukinskis 9y ago
        I was agreeing with you, and providing an emotional basis for your OP's attitude!
        Mz 9y ago
        Ah. Gotcha.
Indy_Dh 9y ago
This was brought up in a post below, but the first sentence is hard to decipher. I think "patiently allowed" here implies that they kindly answered his questions even though he was touching the third rail. In other words he was afraid of being hated on for opening the dialogue, but the people on the Slack channel were fully willing to engage.
- Mz 9y ago
  I’ll thank them ... by promising never to bring this up in their Slack channel again. That reads to me like "It was a shit show, I got the crap kicked out of me. I am trying to be PC." The patience part comes in where they attempted to answer his questions at all instead of merely dogpiling him with a mountain of hatred. If they were genuinely that patient and kind, why is it described as "touching the third rail"? Genuinely patient and kind people don't make you feel like you are going to be electrocuted for broaching a topic.
  - gr3yh47 9y ago
    It reads to me like he knew it was an awkward conversation and out of gratitude would rather not subject them to that again.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Funny, when I have productive conversations with men actually willing to listen to my side, it is such a rare and wonderful privilege that I am eager to repeat the experience. (This may explain my position on HN as the highest ranked woman here. Enough men genuinely engage me on difficult subjects, it is worth putting up with whatever crap goes along with it.) Your interpretation in no way succeeds in changing mine.
      - HelloMcFly 9y ago
        > Your interpretation in no way succeeds in changing mine. It doesn't have to, as there is sufficient ambiguity in the writing to make either interpretation iron-clad. Yet I shared the same interpretation as the commenter you responded to, and was surprised by yours. I now see your perspective, though it rings less true to me. Although, I do think it's borderline inarguable that you are reading too much into the personality traits of the Slack channel members (e.g., "hateful") with far too little information to justify the strength of the words. If those descriptions weren't intended for the Slack channel participants but more of a general comment, then that makes more sense.
jolux 9y ago
"I am so sick of women and people of color being openly hateful to people who were born the "wrong" gender and color to be part of the unfortunate many." Really? So now being born white and male is the "wrong" color and gender? Those are identities that are near the apex of privilege in our society. As a white man, being afraid to ask questions for fear of being unintentionally racist or sexist is nowhere near comparable to the actual experience of racism and sexism. God forbid we hurt a white man's feelings while discussing social justice. That would be a true injustice.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dqv 9y ago
  ... I never thought I'd see the day that someone would argue that sensitivity to sexism and racism is white fragility and fragile masculinity.
- stouset 9y ago
  This is an infuriatingly unhelpful attitude. Presumably the goal is to encourage people who lack awareness about issues surrounding racism and sexism to both become aware and to actually care about these problems. And to change their behavior, to the extent that it should change. Unnecessarily attacking, humiliating, or embarrassing a person who is willfully admitting their own ignorance and seeking a better understanding of the situation is so obviously counterproductive that I can't believe I'm having to write this comment. This is not the way to win people to your side — in fact, it's completely the opposite. Doing so only causes both sides to become more firmly entrenched in their beliefs and less likely to try and discuss the issue further. By giving them a positive experience, you not only increase the likelihood of them seriously considering your arguments, but you also open the door for them to come back to the table for discussion again, even if you didn't win them over the first time around.
  - zepto 9y ago
    Right - clearly it is the job of women and PoC to give positive experiences to white men otherwise they cannot expect to be treated well. It is also clearly not the responsibility of white men to give positive experiences to PoC and women, because they can't be expected to understand how if they aren't first given positive experiences by PoC and women.
kevinh 9y ago
You got the opposite vibe from that paragraph than I did, but assuming you're correct about what happened: Why should the onus be on the minority to be required to have a conversation with everyone who comes up to them and says something ignorant?
- Mz 9y ago
  I am not talking about an onus on the minority to have a conversation with everyone who comes up to them and says something ignorant. But the current openly hostile position that so many underprivileged people take shuts down real conversation. And it basically assumes that privileged peoples are supposed to somehow psychically know what their lives are like while they refuse to inform the people who are in the best position to make their lives better by being more informed. How on earth are white males supposed to learn what the lives and experiences of women and poc are like if no one will have a conversation with them? Do you think being openly hateful to them opens their minds and makes them more understanding? I don't. FYI, I am not only a woman, I am the top ranked woman here. Maybe there is some correlation between my attitude and the in-roads I am making on HN.
  - zepto 9y ago
    I don't think the openly hostile posture is good, nor do I think the general theories of social justice are doing much good anymore. However you actually are saying that 'minorities' need to have conversations with ignorant people. How understanding these ignorant people are is not a function of how 'minorities' respond to them - by which I mean that many people will not be able to have an open mind or become understanding even if they are treated like princes and princesses. One effective way 'white males' can learn more is to find other white males who have successfully navigated this space and learn from them.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Saying that such conversations are needed in the world in no way suggests that there is an onus on specific people to have them with every random asshole who blurts something awful. There is a difference.
thatwebdude 9y ago
I think more of this levels the playing field for all.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
Thank you for pointing out that quote. I can't imagine anyone saying that sentence in Italian with a straight face. Translating those words really puts things into perspective. It sounds self-hating and humiliating. I wonder what the long-term effects of this culture are going to be.
s73ver 9y ago
Especially recently, for every one person who actually is sincere in their desire to learn and grow, there can be three or more people who are trying to be a concern troll or are otherwise asking in bad faith.
- Mz 9y ago
  That isn't news to me. But a problem I face is that when I try to inform and empower women, I am often viciously attacked and accused of "blaming the victim." I was sexually abused as a child. I have thought long and hard about this problem space. I don't believe we will see real progress until we can stop assuming that women are always the victim in any interaction with men, men are always abusive and men are the only ones who can change this situation. And I find it baffling that people seem to not see that the position that the onus is entirely on men to change their behavior is an excellent way to make sure women remain disempowered victims.

by Mz 9y ago

cname 9y ago

How did you get from "very nice people" to "hateful" and "whiny"?

alew1 9y ago

You're making a lot of assumptions for someone who hasn't seen that Slack conversation.

erikpukinskis 9y ago
Straw feminists are frightening.
- Mz 9y ago
  I don't self identify as a feminist. So if you mean me, you are in error.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    Straw feminists are fictional feminists that live in hypothetical situations like your parent's comment. http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341 http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341
    - Mz 9y ago
      Well, I feel a tad lost (in terms of what you were intending with your remark), but count me educated. Thank you for the link.
      - erikpukinskis 9y ago
        I was agreeing with you, and providing an emotional basis for your OP's attitude!
        Mz 9y ago
        Ah. Gotcha.

Indy_Dh 9y ago

This was brought up in a post below, but the first sentence is hard to decipher. I think "patiently allowed" here implies that they kindly answered his questions even though he was touching the third rail. In other words he was afraid of being hated on for opening the dialogue, but the people on the Slack channel were fully willing to engage.

Mz 9y ago
I’ll thank them ... by promising never to bring this up in their Slack channel again. That reads to me like "It was a shit show, I got the crap kicked out of me. I am trying to be PC." The patience part comes in where they attempted to answer his questions at all instead of merely dogpiling him with a mountain of hatred. If they were genuinely that patient and kind, why is it described as "touching the third rail"? Genuinely patient and kind people don't make you feel like you are going to be electrocuted for broaching a topic.
- gr3yh47 9y ago
  It reads to me like he knew it was an awkward conversation and out of gratitude would rather not subject them to that again.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Funny, when I have productive conversations with men actually willing to listen to my side, it is such a rare and wonderful privilege that I am eager to repeat the experience. (This may explain my position on HN as the highest ranked woman here. Enough men genuinely engage me on difficult subjects, it is worth putting up with whatever crap goes along with it.) Your interpretation in no way succeeds in changing mine.
    - HelloMcFly 9y ago
      > Your interpretation in no way succeeds in changing mine. It doesn't have to, as there is sufficient ambiguity in the writing to make either interpretation iron-clad. Yet I shared the same interpretation as the commenter you responded to, and was surprised by yours. I now see your perspective, though it rings less true to me. Although, I do think it's borderline inarguable that you are reading too much into the personality traits of the Slack channel members (e.g., "hateful") with far too little information to justify the strength of the words. If those descriptions weren't intended for the Slack channel participants but more of a general comment, then that makes more sense.

jolux 9y ago

"I am so sick of women and people of color being openly hateful to people who were born the "wrong" gender and color to be part of the unfortunate many." Really? So now being born white and male is the "wrong" color and gender? Those are identities that are near the apex of privilege in our society. As a white man, being afraid to ask questions for fear of being unintentionally racist or sexist is nowhere near comparable to the actual experience of racism and sexism. God forbid we hurt a white man's feelings while discussing social justice. That would be a true injustice.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dqv 9y ago
... I never thought I'd see the day that someone would argue that sensitivity to sexism and racism is white fragility and fragile masculinity.
stouset 9y ago
This is an infuriatingly unhelpful attitude. Presumably the goal is to encourage people who lack awareness about issues surrounding racism and sexism to both become aware and to actually care about these problems. And to change their behavior, to the extent that it should change. Unnecessarily attacking, humiliating, or embarrassing a person who is willfully admitting their own ignorance and seeking a better understanding of the situation is so obviously counterproductive that I can't believe I'm having to write this comment. This is not the way to win people to your side — in fact, it's completely the opposite. Doing so only causes both sides to become more firmly entrenched in their beliefs and less likely to try and discuss the issue further. By giving them a positive experience, you not only increase the likelihood of them seriously considering your arguments, but you also open the door for them to come back to the table for discussion again, even if you didn't win them over the first time around.
- zepto 9y ago
  Right - clearly it is the job of women and PoC to give positive experiences to white men otherwise they cannot expect to be treated well. It is also clearly not the responsibility of white men to give positive experiences to PoC and women, because they can't be expected to understand how if they aren't first given positive experiences by PoC and women.

kevinh 9y ago

You got the opposite vibe from that paragraph than I did, but assuming you're correct about what happened: Why should the onus be on the minority to be required to have a conversation with everyone who comes up to them and says something ignorant?

Mz 9y ago
I am not talking about an onus on the minority to have a conversation with everyone who comes up to them and says something ignorant. But the current openly hostile position that so many underprivileged people take shuts down real conversation. And it basically assumes that privileged peoples are supposed to somehow psychically know what their lives are like while they refuse to inform the people who are in the best position to make their lives better by being more informed. How on earth are white males supposed to learn what the lives and experiences of women and poc are like if no one will have a conversation with them? Do you think being openly hateful to them opens their minds and makes them more understanding? I don't. FYI, I am not only a woman, I am the top ranked woman here. Maybe there is some correlation between my attitude and the in-roads I am making on HN.
- zepto 9y ago
  I don't think the openly hostile posture is good, nor do I think the general theories of social justice are doing much good anymore. However you actually are saying that 'minorities' need to have conversations with ignorant people. How understanding these ignorant people are is not a function of how 'minorities' respond to them - by which I mean that many people will not be able to have an open mind or become understanding even if they are treated like princes and princesses. One effective way 'white males' can learn more is to find other white males who have successfully navigated this space and learn from them.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Saying that such conversations are needed in the world in no way suggests that there is an onus on specific people to have them with every random asshole who blurts something awful. There is a difference.

thatwebdude 9y ago

I think more of this levels the playing field for all.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Red_Tarsius 9y ago

Thank you for pointing out that quote. I can't imagine anyone saying that sentence in Italian with a straight face. Translating those words really puts things into perspective. It sounds self-hating and humiliating. I wonder what the long-term effects of this culture are going to be.

s73ver 9y ago

Especially recently, for every one person who actually is sincere in their desire to learn and grow, there can be three or more people who are trying to be a concern troll or are otherwise asking in bad faith.

Mz 9y ago
That isn't news to me. But a problem I face is that when I try to inform and empower women, I am often viciously attacked and accused of "blaming the victim." I was sexually abused as a child. I have thought long and hard about this problem space. I don't believe we will see real progress until we can stop assuming that women are always the victim in any interaction with men, men are always abusive and men are the only ones who can change this situation. And I find it baffling that people seem to not see that the position that the onus is entirely on men to change their behavior is an excellent way to make sure women remain disempowered victims.