6 ms·

> That’s because the culture was mostly about the business of software, how you build it, how you sell it, how you support it. If you were excited about that, y

> That’s because the culture was mostly about the business of software, how you build it, how you sell it, how you support it. If you were excited about that, you automatically belonged. You didn’t need to stay late, or drink alcohol, or play Rock Band, or play board games, or not have kids to pick up, or go to church, or not go to church, or do anything except show up 9-to-5 and care a lot about good software. Yes! Yes! Yes! I don't drink, and its kind of sad that I get to miss out sometimes because I don't go to the bar. Because I like to bike instead, why can't I not feel pressure to go to the bar and do my own thing after work? Handling work stuff at Work I feel is the way to go.

lmm 9y ago
> I don't drink, and its kind of sad that I get to miss out sometimes because I don't go to the bar. Because I like to bike instead, why can't I not feel pressure to go to the bar and do my own thing after work? Because having a liminal zone where people feel allowed to step outside the hierarchy and say things that might otherwise be unacceptable (e.g. "this framework we're using is totally fucked") is really important and valuable? It's not about the alcohol per se, but alcohol is a particularly effective way of creating that atmosphere.
- ABCLAW 9y ago
  If your organization can't encourage frank discussion about workplace issues without a venue for employees to drug themselves, you probably have more important problems to dive into. More importantly, if you lean on off-site drinking as your method to get real feedback and communication, you probably have less incentive to fix your workplace culture in the first place.
  - asdqwwwww 9y ago
    Congratulations on missing OPs point. Completely. A bar is a pretty standard watering hole where you go to complain about things you'd like to complain about off the record. Maybe the problem is annoying and not fixable, e.g. "this framework sucks", or the problem is with with the industry, e.g. "diversity shouldn't be priority over merit". Both of these problems don't really belong in a "realtime feedback and communication" system because they can't be fixed through the proper channels. The second one especially, where voicing that opinion in SV will get you hung on a cross outside Google HQ. The bar provides a cathartic release so you don't explode at work on problems you can't fix. Why do you think people stop at the bar before going home? Most of them aren't alcoholics, they just don't want to bring unfixable problems home, and face it, complaining _feels_ good.
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode. I have drinks with my work buddies because I like catching up with them and sometimes we're too busy at work to shoot the shit. I don't think anyone has an issue with a few co-workers occasionally grabbing a brew after work. The problem is when people feel pressured to do so because the post-work ritual is replacing actual candid work discussion. Why? Well, its pretty simple. Not everyone drinks. Not everyone has the time to grab a drink after work. Not everyone feels comfortable in a bar around intoxicated co-workers. There's a marked difference between a few co-workers grabbing a beer occasionally and friday night pints being the only place you can discuss problems you're facing at work.
      - asdqwwwww 9y ago
        > Implying you have to drink at a bar > If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode Second to the above - thanks for getting semantic with me. I don't see how a bar excludes any of these people. Maybe where you live they check green cards and do ultrasounds at the door, but where I live anyone can walk into a bar and not feel compelled to drink. You seem to be really up on the inclusion game though. Why shouldn't people be excluded from certain conversations? Should I invite everyone to my complain fest about a framework they love because I hate it? I can't just leave my job, so I go to a "place" (since you seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol) with "receptive people" (since you seem to think exclusion implies leaving out minorities) that can assure me I'm not alone in this world. Additionally I drink at that bar because an ice cold pint at the end of the day is great and it's a thing we all have a common. I don't drink so I don't "explode". I'm really regretting using that word because people like you fixate on minutiae so you don't have to argue an actual point. I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think are you are. Everyone "winds down" some way. I prefer the bar, some people prefer a picnic at the park. There's a bar down the street from work where I can complain with people friendly to my cause about things that bother us. I don't see why this is such a problem. It's almost like you're discouraging human interaction in the name of this ambiguous spectre that haunts SV - "inclusion at all costs".
  - Raphmedia 9y ago
    > without a venue for employees to drug themselve Order a non-alcoholic beverage? When I go to the bar with coworkers to talk and vent about the workplace it's not to be drunk and make a fool of myself in front of everyone. Drink a beer or a cocktail if you enjoy them but otherwise order a soda / a delicious non-alcoholic cocktail or simply order food and eat your meal. It's not as if people were hitting divebars with their coworkers, getting totally drunk and high on drugs. While those things can happen it's generally way past the 5-7 you are expected to be at.
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      Your position feels a lot like "why wouldn't they adapt to fit my preferred way to socialize and blow off steam?" When the default fits you, it sure is attractive to advance that idea! But what happens when you aren't? Is the default of going out after work conducive to someone who needs to pick up their kid after work? Is it conducive to someone who can't or won't drink? etc. What if those workers just want to solve some cool work problems? What happens when the default is so socially required that they're hindered from doing cool work stuff unless they participate? If that happens, you have a cultural problem.
      - lmm 9y ago
        Any culture will exclude some people, because not all cultures are alike and not everyone tolerates a culture unlike their own. You can go for the blandest possible culture to minimise the exclusions, but that's a lot like having no culture and results in a virtually asocial workplace, which is neither the kind of place I want to work, nor what my experience suggests is productive. Not every workplace can be the right place for absolutely everyone; it's worth putting some effort into accommodating people and meeting them halfway, but socialising is too valuable to be worth giving up entirely.
      - shaklee3 9y ago
        What other social setting are you proposing?
        9y ago
  - solatic 9y ago
    Forget about the fact that the place under discussion is a bar for a second. The important bit is getting off-campus together outside of work hours. Sure, you can talk about these things in team-wide meetings. You can also have formal meetings specifically to periodically re-evaluate various bits and pieces of your workplace, not to mention regular townhall meetings, "working" meetings (which are either a symbol of overwork/overplanning or of lack of trust), standup meetings, backlog grooming meetings, retrospectives of all kinds. Back in the military we had a joke about having a retrospective meeting to discuss how the last retrospective meeting went. Each one of these meetings can be thought of as being "productive" in some way, but soon enough, you see that you're spending 80%+ of your time in meetings and nothing is getting done. Off-campus get-togethers intentionally dismiss any aims of productivity, instead trying to help the team gel. Which is incredibly important. If your team can't adapt to the preferences of the team members not to go to a bar, then that's not a problem with bars, that's a problem with your team (and more specifically, the person leading it). If you join a team which cannot agree on a common-interest, enjoyable, occasional evening venue, then that team has either grown too large and needs to be split up, or management screwed up by putting people together who are deeply incompatible with each other and need to be on different teams which are supportive in their own ways so that each can reach their full potential separately.
- pascalxus 9y ago
  And, you have to be really careful when you say a framework or X code sucks. Make sure you understand all parties involved. If you offend the wrong Engineers/co-workers, you'll end up getting fired for it.
- s73ver 9y ago
  If that kind of statement is unacceptable (even if you were to clean it up a bit), then your company has bigger problems. Masking them with alcohol, like masking any other problem with alcohol, is a bad idea.
- Balgair 9y ago
  Using the bar as a place for team meetings is not a good idea. Alcoholism and alcohol induced lawsuit issues aside, it is a public space, and that means anyone can listen in on the discussion legally. I'm not saying that almost ever is a big deal, but it can be one very easily. Remember that guy who got the iPhone stolen at the bar? Besides, as other commenters point out, if you can't say those things inside the meetings they are designed for, you should probably be shopping for a new job; if your boss sucks, get a new one
galdosdi 9y ago
This is so weird. You don't drink alcohol, so you can't set foot in a bar? They serve non alcoholic drinks (and food too as often as not) you know. If anyone but yourself makes you feel weird about not drinking alcohol, the problem is with them, not with bars. It's literally the most inclusive off site activity. Just about anything else excludes somebody (biking for example) But a bar or restaurant requires nothing of you but sitting around, and possibly drinking or eating, which all humans do. Maybe you've had bad experiences at specific venues but don't judge them all by it. (Also I can tell part of your point has to do with an expectation of doing things outside of work hours, and I don't disagree with your view there. But you could go to the pub with coworkers for lunch too or something, within work hours. I just hate how alcohol has gradually become so demonized lately. Like cars, alcohol is an amoral tool that can be used for good, evil, or trivial purposes)
- Balgair 9y ago
  Hoooooly Cow Dude, have you never talked to an alcoholic? Many of them really truly cannot even step foot in a bar, it really is that bad for them.
  - shaklee3 9y ago
    I would guess that most people he's referring to are not alcoholics. That's my experience, at least.
    - Balgair 9y ago
      You'd be surprised. ~10% of the US population has "drinking problems" in any given 12 month long period. Finding stats for alcoholism is surprisingly tough, I think because defining it is so difficult, but about 30 million Americans seem to have 'issues' with the booze. Meaning that you can expect to discover ~1/10 of your team members has an 'issue' with using the bar as a meeting place, whether they admit it or not. https://www.livescience.com/51066-alcohol-use-disorders-prevalence-us.html https://www.livescience.com/51066-alcohol-use-disorders-prev...
- notacoward 9y ago

lmm 9y ago

> I don't drink, and its kind of sad that I get to miss out sometimes because I don't go to the bar. Because I like to bike instead, why can't I not feel pressure to go to the bar and do my own thing after work? Because having a liminal zone where people feel allowed to step outside the hierarchy and say things that might otherwise be unacceptable (e.g. "this framework we're using is totally fucked") is really important and valuable? It's not about the alcohol per se, but alcohol is a particularly effective way of creating that atmosphere.

ABCLAW 9y ago
If your organization can't encourage frank discussion about workplace issues without a venue for employees to drug themselves, you probably have more important problems to dive into. More importantly, if you lean on off-site drinking as your method to get real feedback and communication, you probably have less incentive to fix your workplace culture in the first place.
- asdqwwwww 9y ago
  Congratulations on missing OPs point. Completely. A bar is a pretty standard watering hole where you go to complain about things you'd like to complain about off the record. Maybe the problem is annoying and not fixable, e.g. "this framework sucks", or the problem is with with the industry, e.g. "diversity shouldn't be priority over merit". Both of these problems don't really belong in a "realtime feedback and communication" system because they can't be fixed through the proper channels. The second one especially, where voicing that opinion in SV will get you hung on a cross outside Google HQ. The bar provides a cathartic release so you don't explode at work on problems you can't fix. Why do you think people stop at the bar before going home? Most of them aren't alcoholics, they just don't want to bring unfixable problems home, and face it, complaining _feels_ good.
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode. I have drinks with my work buddies because I like catching up with them and sometimes we're too busy at work to shoot the shit. I don't think anyone has an issue with a few co-workers occasionally grabbing a brew after work. The problem is when people feel pressured to do so because the post-work ritual is replacing actual candid work discussion. Why? Well, its pretty simple. Not everyone drinks. Not everyone has the time to grab a drink after work. Not everyone feels comfortable in a bar around intoxicated co-workers. There's a marked difference between a few co-workers grabbing a beer occasionally and friday night pints being the only place you can discuss problems you're facing at work.
    - asdqwwwww 9y ago
      > Implying you have to drink at a bar > If you're in danger of 'exploding at work' or have problems that can't be fixed through the proper channels, maybe you should focus on dealing with those issues and opening lines of communication instead of getting people to meet up at the bar after work to instill a sense of team that excludes pregnant women, older individuals, people with kids, people who don't drink, etc. I don't have drinks with my work buddies so that I don't explode Second to the above - thanks for getting semantic with me. I don't see how a bar excludes any of these people. Maybe where you live they check green cards and do ultrasounds at the door, but where I live anyone can walk into a bar and not feel compelled to drink. You seem to be really up on the inclusion game though. Why shouldn't people be excluded from certain conversations? Should I invite everyone to my complain fest about a framework they love because I hate it? I can't just leave my job, so I go to a "place" (since you seem to have this internal fixation with bars and alcohol) with "receptive people" (since you seem to think exclusion implies leaving out minorities) that can assure me I'm not alone in this world. Additionally I drink at that bar because an ice cold pint at the end of the day is great and it's a thing we all have a common. I don't drink so I don't "explode". I'm really regretting using that word because people like you fixate on minutiae so you don't have to argue an actual point. I don't think you're nearly as level-headed as you think are you are. Everyone "winds down" some way. I prefer the bar, some people prefer a picnic at the park. There's a bar down the street from work where I can complain with people friendly to my cause about things that bother us. I don't see why this is such a problem. It's almost like you're discouraging human interaction in the name of this ambiguous spectre that haunts SV - "inclusion at all costs".
- Raphmedia 9y ago
  > without a venue for employees to drug themselve Order a non-alcoholic beverage? When I go to the bar with coworkers to talk and vent about the workplace it's not to be drunk and make a fool of myself in front of everyone. Drink a beer or a cocktail if you enjoy them but otherwise order a soda / a delicious non-alcoholic cocktail or simply order food and eat your meal. It's not as if people were hitting divebars with their coworkers, getting totally drunk and high on drugs. While those things can happen it's generally way past the 5-7 you are expected to be at.
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    Your position feels a lot like "why wouldn't they adapt to fit my preferred way to socialize and blow off steam?" When the default fits you, it sure is attractive to advance that idea! But what happens when you aren't? Is the default of going out after work conducive to someone who needs to pick up their kid after work? Is it conducive to someone who can't or won't drink? etc. What if those workers just want to solve some cool work problems? What happens when the default is so socially required that they're hindered from doing cool work stuff unless they participate? If that happens, you have a cultural problem.
    - lmm 9y ago
      Any culture will exclude some people, because not all cultures are alike and not everyone tolerates a culture unlike their own. You can go for the blandest possible culture to minimise the exclusions, but that's a lot like having no culture and results in a virtually asocial workplace, which is neither the kind of place I want to work, nor what my experience suggests is productive. Not every workplace can be the right place for absolutely everyone; it's worth putting some effort into accommodating people and meeting them halfway, but socialising is too valuable to be worth giving up entirely.
    - shaklee3 9y ago
      What other social setting are you proposing?
      - 9y ago
- solatic 9y ago
  Forget about the fact that the place under discussion is a bar for a second. The important bit is getting off-campus together outside of work hours. Sure, you can talk about these things in team-wide meetings. You can also have formal meetings specifically to periodically re-evaluate various bits and pieces of your workplace, not to mention regular townhall meetings, "working" meetings (which are either a symbol of overwork/overplanning or of lack of trust), standup meetings, backlog grooming meetings, retrospectives of all kinds. Back in the military we had a joke about having a retrospective meeting to discuss how the last retrospective meeting went. Each one of these meetings can be thought of as being "productive" in some way, but soon enough, you see that you're spending 80%+ of your time in meetings and nothing is getting done. Off-campus get-togethers intentionally dismiss any aims of productivity, instead trying to help the team gel. Which is incredibly important. If your team can't adapt to the preferences of the team members not to go to a bar, then that's not a problem with bars, that's a problem with your team (and more specifically, the person leading it). If you join a team which cannot agree on a common-interest, enjoyable, occasional evening venue, then that team has either grown too large and needs to be split up, or management screwed up by putting people together who are deeply incompatible with each other and need to be on different teams which are supportive in their own ways so that each can reach their full potential separately.
pascalxus 9y ago
And, you have to be really careful when you say a framework or X code sucks. Make sure you understand all parties involved. If you offend the wrong Engineers/co-workers, you'll end up getting fired for it.
s73ver 9y ago
If that kind of statement is unacceptable (even if you were to clean it up a bit), then your company has bigger problems. Masking them with alcohol, like masking any other problem with alcohol, is a bad idea.
Balgair 9y ago
Using the bar as a place for team meetings is not a good idea. Alcoholism and alcohol induced lawsuit issues aside, it is a public space, and that means anyone can listen in on the discussion legally. I'm not saying that almost ever is a big deal, but it can be one very easily. Remember that guy who got the iPhone stolen at the bar? Besides, as other commenters point out, if you can't say those things inside the meetings they are designed for, you should probably be shopping for a new job; if your boss sucks, get a new one

galdosdi 9y ago

This is so weird. You don't drink alcohol, so you can't set foot in a bar? They serve non alcoholic drinks (and food too as often as not) you know. If anyone but yourself makes you feel weird about not drinking alcohol, the problem is with them, not with bars. It's literally the most inclusive off site activity. Just about anything else excludes somebody (biking for example) But a bar or restaurant requires nothing of you but sitting around, and possibly drinking or eating, which all humans do. Maybe you've had bad experiences at specific venues but don't judge them all by it. (Also I can tell part of your point has to do with an expectation of doing things outside of work hours, and I don't disagree with your view there. But you could go to the pub with coworkers for lunch too or something, within work hours. I just hate how alcohol has gradually become so demonized lately. Like cars, alcohol is an amoral tool that can be used for good, evil, or trivial purposes)

Balgair 9y ago
Hoooooly Cow Dude, have you never talked to an alcoholic? Many of them really truly cannot even step foot in a bar, it really is that bad for them.
- shaklee3 9y ago
  I would guess that most people he's referring to are not alcoholics. That's my experience, at least.
  - Balgair 9y ago
    You'd be surprised. ~10% of the US population has "drinking problems" in any given 12 month long period. Finding stats for alcoholism is surprisingly tough, I think because defining it is so difficult, but about 30 million Americans seem to have 'issues' with the booze. Meaning that you can expect to discover ~1/10 of your team members has an 'issue' with using the bar as a meeting place, whether they admit it or not. https://www.livescience.com/51066-alcohol-use-disorders-prevalence-us.html https://www.livescience.com/51066-alcohol-use-disorders-prev...
notacoward 9y ago