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>The preferred usage (I'm told) is that man/woman is used for gender and male/female is used for sex. Gender is largely limited to humans, but humans also have

>The preferred usage (I'm told) is that man/woman is used for gender and male/female is used for sex. Gender is largely limited to humans, but humans also have a biological sex that is both difficult to ascertain in some cases and also completely irrelevant to most discussions around the workplace. >This also leaves open that there is room for more genders while leaving sex as a somewhat resolved issue. Until relatively recently, the terms "gender" and "sex" meant essentially the same thing and could be used interchangeably. But these days, a small, but very vocal, vicious and vindictive segment of the population has decided that their definition of the word "gender" is the only one that is acceptable in public forums, so they deploy tactics ranging from public shaming to career destruction to enforce their own cultural taboos. If someone wants to hold the unscientific (and IMO weird) view that, for example, "otherkin" is a gender, that is perfectly fine by me. I'm not going to try to stop them or convince them they're wrong. What is not fine by me is any assertion that I may no longer use the term "gender" in its traditional (and IMO correct) sense of the word.

d3ad1ysp0rk 9y ago
"vocal, vicious and vindictive" are the words you use to describe people who are saying "Respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way".
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  >"vocal, vicious and vindictive" are the words you use to describe people who are saying "Respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way". You left off the "or we will destroy you personally and professionally" part. Those are the people whom I describe as "vocal, vicious and vindictive".
  - creepydata 9y ago
    This isn't new, being needlessly rude has always destroyed you personally and professionally. I know a guy who lost his job for calling a coworker "Sugar Tits." I would not describe his boss as "vocal, vicious and vindictive" for firing him. If you are polite to others and "respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way" you will have no issues. If you're being a dick you can be expected to be called out for being a dick, we live in a polite society, this is how these things work.
    - rhapsodic 9y ago
      >If you're being a dick you can be expected to be called out for being a dick, we live in a polite society, this is how these things work. True enough. And I happen to think that people who are trying to establish that referring to men as "male" and women as "female" are violating the rules of polite society are giant, throbbing dicks. So I'm going to call them out.
      - creepydata 9y ago
        And I can say "people who take offensive to being called 'Sugar Tits' by their coworkers are giant, throbbing dicks" but that is completely irrelevant because we live in a society where that's not appropriate behavior. There can be consequences for violating social norms, this isn't a difficult concept.
        rhapsodic 9y ago
        > There can be consequences for violating social norms, this isn't a difficult concept. I've already agreed with that. And referring to men as "male" and woman as "female" is not violating any social norms, at least not in the United States.
        creepydata 9y ago
        First you claimed "until relatively recently, the terms "gender" and "sex" meant essentially the same thing and could be used interchangeably" which is objectively incorrect and you've ignored that I pointed it out. You also claimed that gender is some sort of scientific concept, which is also objectively incorrect. If someone asks you to call them by "him" and you call them "her" instead, you are just being unnecessarily mean. This is not a hard concept to understand, be polite to others if you don't want to face problems in your personal life and career. Refer to people as they wish to be referred as. Asking you to do that is not "vocal, vicious and vindictive... [people] ...enforc[ing] their own cultural taboos" and quite frankly I find it disturbing you think is it.
creepydata 9y ago
>Until relatively recently, the terms "gender" and "sex" meant essentially the same thing and could be used interchangeably Um, no, absolutely not, it's literally the opposite, the term "gender," was essentially introduced to be distinct from biological sex. Its entire purpose for existing is to be different from "sex." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender >Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or an intersex variation which may complicate sex assignment), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Some cultures have specific gender roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra (chhaka) of India and Pakistan. >Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[4][5] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3] >If someone wants to hold the unscientific (and IMO weird) view that, for example, "otherkin" is a gender, that is perfectly fine by me. Gender is not a scientific concept, it's a social one. Gender categories and concepts are not uniform throughout history or cultures. Even biology isn't so clear cut, there also exists people who are intersexed to varying degrees. Is it "unscientific" to call someone who has female sexual organs but has a Y chromosome a women? Maybe, but it makes sense on a social level and if she wants to be referred to as a woman.
- HelloNurse 9y ago
  The modern concept of "gender" was introduced to be distinct from that of "sex", but the word dates back to Latin at least and, until repurposed, it was synonymous despite the strong specialization towards use in grammar: the gender of nouns, pronouns, articles etc. is aligned with the sex of things. Of course, the aspect of cultural arbitrariness of grammatical gender (with different languages assigning a different gender to corresponding words) leads directly to the new psychological meaning of the word.

d3ad1ysp0rk 9y ago

"vocal, vicious and vindictive" are the words you use to describe people who are saying "Respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way".

rhapsodic 9y ago
>"vocal, vicious and vindictive" are the words you use to describe people who are saying "Respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way". You left off the "or we will destroy you personally and professionally" part. Those are the people whom I describe as "vocal, vicious and vindictive".
- creepydata 9y ago
  This isn't new, being needlessly rude has always destroyed you personally and professionally. I know a guy who lost his job for calling a coworker "Sugar Tits." I would not describe his boss as "vocal, vicious and vindictive" for firing him. If you are polite to others and "respect the wishes of people who want to be referred to in a specific way" you will have no issues. If you're being a dick you can be expected to be called out for being a dick, we live in a polite society, this is how these things work.
  - rhapsodic 9y ago
    >If you're being a dick you can be expected to be called out for being a dick, we live in a polite society, this is how these things work. True enough. And I happen to think that people who are trying to establish that referring to men as "male" and women as "female" are violating the rules of polite society are giant, throbbing dicks. So I'm going to call them out.
    - creepydata 9y ago
      And I can say "people who take offensive to being called 'Sugar Tits' by their coworkers are giant, throbbing dicks" but that is completely irrelevant because we live in a society where that's not appropriate behavior. There can be consequences for violating social norms, this isn't a difficult concept.
      - rhapsodic 9y ago
        > There can be consequences for violating social norms, this isn't a difficult concept. I've already agreed with that. And referring to men as "male" and woman as "female" is not violating any social norms, at least not in the United States.
        creepydata 9y ago
        First you claimed "until relatively recently, the terms "gender" and "sex" meant essentially the same thing and could be used interchangeably" which is objectively incorrect and you've ignored that I pointed it out. You also claimed that gender is some sort of scientific concept, which is also objectively incorrect. If someone asks you to call them by "him" and you call them "her" instead, you are just being unnecessarily mean. This is not a hard concept to understand, be polite to others if you don't want to face problems in your personal life and career. Refer to people as they wish to be referred as. Asking you to do that is not "vocal, vicious and vindictive... [people] ...enforc[ing] their own cultural taboos" and quite frankly I find it disturbing you think is it.

creepydata 9y ago

>Until relatively recently, the terms "gender" and "sex" meant essentially the same thing and could be used interchangeably Um, no, absolutely not, it's literally the opposite, the term "gender," was essentially introduced to be distinct from biological sex. Its entire purpose for existing is to be different from "sex." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender >Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or an intersex variation which may complicate sex assignment), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity.[1][2][3] Some cultures have specific gender roles that can be considered distinct from male and female, such as the hijra (chhaka) of India and Pakistan. >Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[4][5] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3] >If someone wants to hold the unscientific (and IMO weird) view that, for example, "otherkin" is a gender, that is perfectly fine by me. Gender is not a scientific concept, it's a social one. Gender categories and concepts are not uniform throughout history or cultures. Even biology isn't so clear cut, there also exists people who are intersexed to varying degrees. Is it "unscientific" to call someone who has female sexual organs but has a Y chromosome a women? Maybe, but it makes sense on a social level and if she wants to be referred to as a woman.

HelloNurse 9y ago
The modern concept of "gender" was introduced to be distinct from that of "sex", but the word dates back to Latin at least and, until repurposed, it was synonymous despite the strong specialization towards use in grammar: the gender of nouns, pronouns, articles etc. is aligned with the sex of things. Of course, the aspect of cultural arbitrariness of grammatical gender (with different languages assigning a different gender to corresponding words) leads directly to the new psychological meaning of the word.