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Yes, yes, yes. This was brought up in a thread last week about "As a female, how do I identify a good employer?" The best answers basically said "work somewhe

Yes, yes, yes. This was brought up in a thread last week about "As a female, how do I identify a good employer?" The best answers basically said "work somewhere that has as boring a corporate culture as possible". Basically, work for a place where you are rated on your production and nothing else. Work elsewhere and things like "how late did you work?" -- a metric that is far easier for people without children to meet -- cease to matter. Working late isn't the only thing (though it is a big one), but it tends to correlate with "immature HR practices" in general. Inclusivity is about recognizing that people have life configurations that differ from your own, and creating the space for those differences to exist.

blablabla123 9y ago
Damn, all this corporate bashing during the last years... It sounded so right. Having worked at several startups in these years, and also co-founded one, I realized the culture is often borderline insane. Working now at a more or less corporate startup, I'm so much happier.
- exelius 9y ago
  Yeah, for as much as people hate on being corporate, it really does keep a lid on a lot of the bad behavior you see at startups that gets swept under the table because of the informal nature of record keeping and decision making.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- Joeri 9y ago
  I wouldn't call it corporate, I'd call it professional.
- nightski 9y ago
  Not only that, I personally found out I was fooling myself. Sure I was working until 8PM-9PM many days but found that I wasn't getting much at all done in the mornings. I'd hit my productivity stride around 1-2 PM after lunch. Getting in and starting early, finishing up early/mid afternoon and then enjoying the evenings either working on my own thing or just spending time with the SO has significantly increased quality of life.
  - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    sometimes I work on a problem way too late. Get stuck and try all kinds of things. Then I go home, eat, spend time with my family. The next day I open up my computer and immediately find and solve he issue. It's very hard for me to put a problem down and simply not think about it for a period of time, but as I've matured I've realized how important that skill is.
    - christophilus 9y ago
      I agree completely. It happens so consistently for me that you'd think letting a problem go would have gotten easier. It hasn't. The part of me that needs closure must be very strong and seems to function largely in the subconscious/below the rational level. It's a constant struggle to leave things behind and properly unwind at the end of the day.
    - posixplz 9y ago
      I used to work the same way. Then, I discovered that if I drastically cut (and, in most cases, eliminated entirely) the amount of time I spent toiling after-hours on a given issue, I was able to achieve the same level of next-day success. You touched on the key here: sleeping on a problem, letting your brain solve it in the background, is really quite effective.
  - dasmoth 9y ago
    Any tricks that helped you achieve this? For me, the appeal of non-standard hours is that it's dramatically easier to focus when my coworkers aren't around (and to some extent, this is true even when remote). Truth be told, the optimum for me would probably be to just write mornings off completely and have them as the "family time" slot.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  It is not insane... if you are 24 with no family. Everyone thinks that startups are populated by young, single 20-somethings because those are the people who take risks and disrupt the status quo, when actually, it is because they are the only people who can put up with that lifestyle.
  - cwyers 9y ago
    Or that the lifestyle is designed to attract and then wring every last bit of labor from gifted but low-paid and fungible workers.
  - _yosefk 9y ago
    Couldn't it be both? That is, those are the people who can take risks because they are the only people who can put up with that lifestyle? (Not sure if it's true or more precisely to what extent it's true, in fact I'm pretty sure some startups did well without "that lifestyle", for instance a guy from LinkedIn wrote somewhere how they worked a standard work week; I'm just not seeing the contradiction implied by your "when actually...")
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Even if you're 24 with no family... there are better things to be doing with your life than working 10-14 hour days. Some unsolicited advice: don't wait until your 30's to figure that out.
    - lacampbell 9y ago
      my background was working fast food, being a day labourer and long periods of unemployment. I knew this from day 1 going into tech. I find people who come from wealthier backgrounds than me tend to over work.
  - ahoy 9y ago
    It's insane if you're 24 too. You're just too dumb to know that you're being had because you've never worked in an adult environment.
  - 9y ago
- wickawic 9y ago
  Wait until someone says you work at a "lifestyle company" as if this is a bad thing.
cynicalbastard 9y ago
i have a suspicion that this is why women can do very very well in corporate sales without overworking. the output is precisely quantifiable.
FT_intern 9y ago
Or any company with a low % of Americans. Many big tech companies and unicorns have a high immigrant %. There is very high cultural and background diversity in these companies despite low racial and gender diversity, (gender and race aren't useful metrics/proxies for cultural diversity in companies with high immigrant populations). Everyone on these culturally diverse teams all grew up in different countries and have different primary languages. As a result, they have very little in common and are less likely to have casual conversations with each other. People come into work and leave.
pdeuchler 9y ago
This doesn't make sense to me, some of the most toxic work cultures I've experienced were highly corporate with extremely "mature" HR practices. Besides, a place where you're solely valued on your contribution? I hate to say it, but it doesn't exist. There's no silver bullet to this, and finding a company that actually treats it's employees well is hard because 1) they're rare 2) they don't often have job openings (generally because they're smaller, also because they don't have people leaving very often) 3) the jobs are highly desirable, and 4) they're not writing virtue signaling blogs posts about it because they're too busy living a well balanced life. Trying to list out "signals" of a "healthy corporate culture" is like how PUAs try to read "mating signs" in women (although not trying to equate the two in any other aspect), it shows a lack of understanding of how the relationship works. At the end of the day taking a job is a risk on both parties, but only one of those parties has to feed and clothe themselves. It's going to take trial and error and experience to figure out what to look for and how to bail and move on if things are bad... but the crucial part there is "bail and move on", which most people don't have the luxury of doing. Of course the logical conclusion from that is: the real problem with "workplace culture" is workers have next to no power compared to the employer. This could also explain why "work less" cultures might be more friendly, since it implies a more equal power balance. If we really want to make workplaces more diverse and inclusive we need to increase workers rights across the board, embrace collective bargaining at some level, and most importantly, improve people's economic standing so they don't have to choose between a terrible workplace and a roof over their heads. Once those baseline needs are met we can start to tackle the thornier issues of culture and toxicity, but as long as the fundamental power dynamic remains we won't be able to make headway.
- Apocryphon 9y ago
  Fog Creek Software might be one of the most blog post prolific company of their size. (Though that just be the amount of writing from Joel Spolsky.) The only other that comes to mind is Basecamp/37 Signals.
Xcelerate 9y ago
I recently finished grad school and just started my first job at a large, older corporation a few months ago, and it's been great! It blows my mind that people "voluntarily" work until 8 PM at a startup. In fact, I recently asked my boss if I could shift my schedule earlier—instead of 8-5, I wanted to do 6-3 (with an hour lunch). I figured this would help me avoid traffic and give me more daylight hours in the afternoon. He said, "That's fine; we're flexible. Just make sure you're getting in 40 hours each week". So far, it's been amazing! And this is coming from the most morning-hating person ever. But finishing at 3:00 in the afternoon is a fantastic feeling (despite having to go to bed a bit earlier). Also, being the only person in the office from 6:00 - 7:30 means I get a ton of "deep work" time, and my productivity has shot up as well. I would give a hard "no" to any startup that wanted me to work 10-8. That's just absurd.
- ori_b 9y ago
  I've never been at a company that's actually cared about when I work. Is needing to ask your boss about coming in at a different time actually common?
  - Xcelerate 9y ago
    No idea. But it's my first real job and better safe to ask than sorry to assume things.
    - JBlue42 9y ago
      It's the right thing to do at most companies. People know when you're available and when you're not.
  - Angostura 9y ago
    If you're doing the kind of work that requires close collaboration with others, face-to-face or is customer-facing, absolutely.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    I have never worked at an in office job where I did NOT need to run my schedule by someone.

blablabla123 9y ago

Damn, all this corporate bashing during the last years... It sounded so right. Having worked at several startups in these years, and also co-founded one, I realized the culture is often borderline insane. Working now at a more or less corporate startup, I'm so much happier.

exelius 9y ago
Yeah, for as much as people hate on being corporate, it really does keep a lid on a lot of the bad behavior you see at startups that gets swept under the table because of the informal nature of record keeping and decision making.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Joeri 9y ago
I wouldn't call it corporate, I'd call it professional.
nightski 9y ago
Not only that, I personally found out I was fooling myself. Sure I was working until 8PM-9PM many days but found that I wasn't getting much at all done in the mornings. I'd hit my productivity stride around 1-2 PM after lunch. Getting in and starting early, finishing up early/mid afternoon and then enjoying the evenings either working on my own thing or just spending time with the SO has significantly increased quality of life.
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  sometimes I work on a problem way too late. Get stuck and try all kinds of things. Then I go home, eat, spend time with my family. The next day I open up my computer and immediately find and solve he issue. It's very hard for me to put a problem down and simply not think about it for a period of time, but as I've matured I've realized how important that skill is.
  - christophilus 9y ago
    I agree completely. It happens so consistently for me that you'd think letting a problem go would have gotten easier. It hasn't. The part of me that needs closure must be very strong and seems to function largely in the subconscious/below the rational level. It's a constant struggle to leave things behind and properly unwind at the end of the day.
  - posixplz 9y ago
    I used to work the same way. Then, I discovered that if I drastically cut (and, in most cases, eliminated entirely) the amount of time I spent toiling after-hours on a given issue, I was able to achieve the same level of next-day success. You touched on the key here: sleeping on a problem, letting your brain solve it in the background, is really quite effective.
- dasmoth 9y ago
  Any tricks that helped you achieve this? For me, the appeal of non-standard hours is that it's dramatically easier to focus when my coworkers aren't around (and to some extent, this is true even when remote). Truth be told, the optimum for me would probably be to just write mornings off completely and have them as the "family time" slot.
cortesoft 9y ago
It is not insane... if you are 24 with no family. Everyone thinks that startups are populated by young, single 20-somethings because those are the people who take risks and disrupt the status quo, when actually, it is because they are the only people who can put up with that lifestyle.
- cwyers 9y ago
  Or that the lifestyle is designed to attract and then wring every last bit of labor from gifted but low-paid and fungible workers.
- _yosefk 9y ago
  Couldn't it be both? That is, those are the people who can take risks because they are the only people who can put up with that lifestyle? (Not sure if it's true or more precisely to what extent it's true, in fact I'm pretty sure some startups did well without "that lifestyle", for instance a guy from LinkedIn wrote somewhere how they worked a standard work week; I'm just not seeing the contradiction implied by your "when actually...")
- falcolas 9y ago
  Even if you're 24 with no family... there are better things to be doing with your life than working 10-14 hour days. Some unsolicited advice: don't wait until your 30's to figure that out.
  - lacampbell 9y ago
    my background was working fast food, being a day labourer and long periods of unemployment. I knew this from day 1 going into tech. I find people who come from wealthier backgrounds than me tend to over work.
- ahoy 9y ago
  It's insane if you're 24 too. You're just too dumb to know that you're being had because you've never worked in an adult environment.
- 9y ago
wickawic 9y ago
Wait until someone says you work at a "lifestyle company" as if this is a bad thing.

cynicalbastard 9y ago

i have a suspicion that this is why women can do very very well in corporate sales without overworking. the output is precisely quantifiable.

FT_intern 9y ago

Or any company with a low % of Americans. Many big tech companies and unicorns have a high immigrant %. There is very high cultural and background diversity in these companies despite low racial and gender diversity, (gender and race aren't useful metrics/proxies for cultural diversity in companies with high immigrant populations). Everyone on these culturally diverse teams all grew up in different countries and have different primary languages. As a result, they have very little in common and are less likely to have casual conversations with each other. People come into work and leave.

pdeuchler 9y ago

This doesn't make sense to me, some of the most toxic work cultures I've experienced were highly corporate with extremely "mature" HR practices. Besides, a place where you're solely valued on your contribution? I hate to say it, but it doesn't exist. There's no silver bullet to this, and finding a company that actually treats it's employees well is hard because 1) they're rare 2) they don't often have job openings (generally because they're smaller, also because they don't have people leaving very often) 3) the jobs are highly desirable, and 4) they're not writing virtue signaling blogs posts about it because they're too busy living a well balanced life. Trying to list out "signals" of a "healthy corporate culture" is like how PUAs try to read "mating signs" in women (although not trying to equate the two in any other aspect), it shows a lack of understanding of how the relationship works. At the end of the day taking a job is a risk on both parties, but only one of those parties has to feed and clothe themselves. It's going to take trial and error and experience to figure out what to look for and how to bail and move on if things are bad... but the crucial part there is "bail and move on", which most people don't have the luxury of doing. Of course the logical conclusion from that is: the real problem with "workplace culture" is workers have next to no power compared to the employer. This could also explain why "work less" cultures might be more friendly, since it implies a more equal power balance. If we really want to make workplaces more diverse and inclusive we need to increase workers rights across the board, embrace collective bargaining at some level, and most importantly, improve people's economic standing so they don't have to choose between a terrible workplace and a roof over their heads. Once those baseline needs are met we can start to tackle the thornier issues of culture and toxicity, but as long as the fundamental power dynamic remains we won't be able to make headway.

Apocryphon 9y ago
Fog Creek Software might be one of the most blog post prolific company of their size. (Though that just be the amount of writing from Joel Spolsky.) The only other that comes to mind is Basecamp/37 Signals.

Xcelerate 9y ago

I recently finished grad school and just started my first job at a large, older corporation a few months ago, and it's been great! It blows my mind that people "voluntarily" work until 8 PM at a startup. In fact, I recently asked my boss if I could shift my schedule earlier—instead of 8-5, I wanted to do 6-3 (with an hour lunch). I figured this would help me avoid traffic and give me more daylight hours in the afternoon. He said, "That's fine; we're flexible. Just make sure you're getting in 40 hours each week". So far, it's been amazing! And this is coming from the most morning-hating person ever. But finishing at 3:00 in the afternoon is a fantastic feeling (despite having to go to bed a bit earlier). Also, being the only person in the office from 6:00 - 7:30 means I get a ton of "deep work" time, and my productivity has shot up as well. I would give a hard "no" to any startup that wanted me to work 10-8. That's just absurd.

ori_b 9y ago
I've never been at a company that's actually cared about when I work. Is needing to ask your boss about coming in at a different time actually common?
- Xcelerate 9y ago
  No idea. But it's my first real job and better safe to ask than sorry to assume things.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    It's the right thing to do at most companies. People know when you're available and when you're not.
- Angostura 9y ago
  If you're doing the kind of work that requires close collaboration with others, face-to-face or is customer-facing, absolutely.
- brianwawok 9y ago
  I have never worked at an in office job where I did NOT need to run my schedule by someone.