5 ms·

It's interesting to view commute time as the employer's time rather than employee's time, and therefore as time that should be compensated. I'd always thought o

by del82 9y ago

It's interesting to view commute time as the employer's time rather than employee's time, and therefore as time that should be compensated. I'd always thought of it as the employee's time, and the employee's decision about where to live and how to commute, etc. As an employee I'd factor in the commute when making decisions about a job. Playing with this idea a bit: do you view the clothes that someone (only) wears to a traditional in-person office as rightfully the responsibility of the employer? Lunch?

devoply 9y ago
Everyone has to eat at all times regardless. Everyone has to wear clothes. I bought steel toed boots that I only needed for work, company had a $150 allowance for that.
wickawic 9y ago
Many workplaces require a certain attire. You probably already own dress clothes, but someone who doesn't might have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to obtain clothes for their job. But I'm not just talking about just white collar positions either; construction workers, photographers, waiters, retail workers, telemarketers, etc. all have dress codes, some for safety and some to weed out "undesirables". If I can expense my ergonomic keyboard, a dock worker better be able to expense their steel-toed boots.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > all have dress codes, some for safety and some to weed out "undesirables". In Germany if some safety clothes are compulsory by law, the employer has to pay for them: http://www.business-netz.com/Arbeitsschutz-und-Arbeitssicherheit/Arbeitskleidung-Arbeitgeber http://www.business-netz.com/Arbeitsschutz-und-Arbeitssicher...
firasd 9y ago
Interesting related court case from a couple years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity_Staffing_Solutions,_Inc._v._Busk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity_Staffing_Solutions,_...: "a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court, ruling that time spent by workers waiting to undergo anti-employee theft security screenings is not "integral and indispensable" to their work, and thus not compensable under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). The Court delivered their ruling on December 9, 2014." I found this because I had a vague memory about a case about time spent "closing down stores" but maybe it was this or something else.
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  I was really shocked at that ruling, and especially at the court's unanimity regarding it. Perhaps there's some deeply technical reason that it makes sense, but the conclusion seems absurd to me based on common sense.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    From the actual ruling: Finally, respondents’ claim that the screenings are compensable because Integrity Staffing could have reduced the time to a de minimis amount is properly presented at the bargaining table, not to a court in an FLSA claim.[0] The petitioner brought the claim under FLSA. It sounds really bad on face that the workers have to do this as a condition of employment, but imagine if instead of this pat-down, the complex property was really big, and employees had to walk an extra 25 minutes to their station because public transit could not access those roads, no employee cars were allowed, and no shuttles were provided. It boils down to a worker/employer bargaining dispute, not a labor violation. [0]https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf (page 2 as numbered)
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Seems like a sensible application of the Portal-to-Portal Act, which specifically says that "activities which are preliminary to or postliminar" to the main job activity are not compensable. I.e., blame Congress.
  - creepydata 9y ago
    I guess it is not really that different than the parking area being really far away and you have to spend time either waiting for/taking the shuttle or walking.
  - HappyTypist 9y ago
    It's about free market at work. You can choose to work for another company that pays you more, or pays you for that time.
croon 9y ago
To some extent, yes on all counts. > As an employee I'd factor in the commute when making decisions about a job. Meaning you make concessions to either where you live or where you work. Isn't that a sign that it's not completely your choice? If all jobs could be done from home you would have all choices of housing available. > do you view the clothes that someone (only) wears to a traditional in-person office as rightfully the responsibility of the employer? Lunch? Same reasoning here: The only way you're not making concessions is if you happen to like the clothes that fit within the dress code of the company (if any). And as for lunch, I've done IF for a few years (stopped a while back), and it's really difficult if you don't tailor it around work when it comes to work lunches, fitting meetings, available restaurants around work if you don't bring your own lunch, etc. I don't have much problems with either of it, as I've accepted it as status quo, but it's obviously not a free choice.
- del82 9y ago
  > Meaning you make concessions to either where you live or where you work. Isn't that a sign that it's not completely your choice? Well yes, I mean there are many things about my job and my life that aren't completely my choice if by that we mean I have to make prioritization decisions and tradeoffs. Not being forced to work from any specific location eliminates one of the constraints, sure. The point was more about the idea that commute time should be compensated for those whose employers to require them to come to an office. That's not obvious to me. Suppose, for example, I chose to live 2 hours away from my office. Should I be compensated for the 4 hours per day I spend commuting?
  - croon 9y ago
    > The point was more about the idea that commute time should be compensated for those whose employers to require them to come to an office. That's not obvious to me. Suppose, for example, I chose to live 2 hours away from my office. Should I be compensated for the 4 hours per day I spend commuting? Yes, you're right. I wasn't arguing for a mandate, but merely questioning the status quo. But if I could change it, I guess I would say; Not if you have the choice to work from home instead. Otherwise, I don't know, maybe? Obviously no one wants to pay wage to someone who chooses to live hours from work, but likewise if my employer forces me to be somewhere far away when I can get the same work done remotely, that's equally bad. Of course both parties has the choice of switching employer/employee, but I digress.

by del82 9y ago

devoply 9y ago

Everyone has to eat at all times regardless. Everyone has to wear clothes. I bought steel toed boots that I only needed for work, company had a $150 allowance for that.

wickawic 9y ago

Many workplaces require a certain attire. You probably already own dress clothes, but someone who doesn't might have to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to obtain clothes for their job. But I'm not just talking about just white collar positions either; construction workers, photographers, waiters, retail workers, telemarketers, etc. all have dress codes, some for safety and some to weed out "undesirables". If I can expense my ergonomic keyboard, a dock worker better be able to expense their steel-toed boots.

wolfgke 9y ago
> all have dress codes, some for safety and some to weed out "undesirables". In Germany if some safety clothes are compulsory by law, the employer has to pay for them: http://www.business-netz.com/Arbeitsschutz-und-Arbeitssicherheit/Arbeitskleidung-Arbeitgeber http://www.business-netz.com/Arbeitsschutz-und-Arbeitssicher...

firasd 9y ago

Interesting related court case from a couple years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity_Staffing_Solutions,_Inc._v._Busk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity_Staffing_Solutions,_...: "a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court, ruling that time spent by workers waiting to undergo anti-employee theft security screenings is not "integral and indispensable" to their work, and thus not compensable under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). The Court delivered their ruling on December 9, 2014." I found this because I had a vague memory about a case about time spent "closing down stores" but maybe it was this or something else.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
I was really shocked at that ruling, and especially at the court's unanimity regarding it. Perhaps there's some deeply technical reason that it makes sense, but the conclusion seems absurd to me based on common sense.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  From the actual ruling: Finally, respondents’ claim that the screenings are compensable because Integrity Staffing could have reduced the time to a de minimis amount is properly presented at the bargaining table, not to a court in an FLSA claim.[0] The petitioner brought the claim under FLSA. It sounds really bad on face that the workers have to do this as a condition of employment, but imagine if instead of this pat-down, the complex property was really big, and employees had to walk an extra 25 minutes to their station because public transit could not access those roads, no employee cars were allowed, and no shuttles were provided. It boils down to a worker/employer bargaining dispute, not a labor violation. [0]https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf (page 2 as numbered)
- icebraining 9y ago
  Seems like a sensible application of the Portal-to-Portal Act, which specifically says that "activities which are preliminary to or postliminar" to the main job activity are not compensable. I.e., blame Congress.
- creepydata 9y ago
  I guess it is not really that different than the parking area being really far away and you have to spend time either waiting for/taking the shuttle or walking.
- HappyTypist 9y ago
  It's about free market at work. You can choose to work for another company that pays you more, or pays you for that time.

croon 9y ago

To some extent, yes on all counts. > As an employee I'd factor in the commute when making decisions about a job. Meaning you make concessions to either where you live or where you work. Isn't that a sign that it's not completely your choice? If all jobs could be done from home you would have all choices of housing available. > do you view the clothes that someone (only) wears to a traditional in-person office as rightfully the responsibility of the employer? Lunch? Same reasoning here: The only way you're not making concessions is if you happen to like the clothes that fit within the dress code of the company (if any). And as for lunch, I've done IF for a few years (stopped a while back), and it's really difficult if you don't tailor it around work when it comes to work lunches, fitting meetings, available restaurants around work if you don't bring your own lunch, etc. I don't have much problems with either of it, as I've accepted it as status quo, but it's obviously not a free choice.

del82 9y ago
> Meaning you make concessions to either where you live or where you work. Isn't that a sign that it's not completely your choice? Well yes, I mean there are many things about my job and my life that aren't completely my choice if by that we mean I have to make prioritization decisions and tradeoffs. Not being forced to work from any specific location eliminates one of the constraints, sure. The point was more about the idea that commute time should be compensated for those whose employers to require them to come to an office. That's not obvious to me. Suppose, for example, I chose to live 2 hours away from my office. Should I be compensated for the 4 hours per day I spend commuting?
- croon 9y ago
  > The point was more about the idea that commute time should be compensated for those whose employers to require them to come to an office. That's not obvious to me. Suppose, for example, I chose to live 2 hours away from my office. Should I be compensated for the 4 hours per day I spend commuting? Yes, you're right. I wasn't arguing for a mandate, but merely questioning the status quo. But if I could change it, I guess I would say; Not if you have the choice to work from home instead. Otherwise, I don't know, maybe? Obviously no one wants to pay wage to someone who chooses to live hours from work, but likewise if my employer forces me to be somewhere far away when I can get the same work done remotely, that's equally bad. Of course both parties has the choice of switching employer/employee, but I digress.