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So while the ultra-rich corrupt democracy and amass ever more power, with increasing numbers of people vulnerable to their every whim, the people who work for a

So while the ultra-rich corrupt democracy and amass ever more power, with increasing numbers of people vulnerable to their every whim, the people who work for a merely comfortable living should feel guilty? Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives?

pc86 9y ago
I think the point is that it's a bit of mental gymnastics to rail against "the rich" when you're a senior developer at Netflix making 10x the median household income.
Quarrelsome 9y ago
cause I know the tech industry is "bubbly". Lot of people working in tech don't quite grok how tough it is for others to get by. Lets face it, while we're high enough to see the "real money" we're still a lot higher than everyone else salary and job security wise. What if programmers were a dime a dozen and highly trained social care was where the lucra was at?
ThrowawayR2 9y ago
> Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives? It's a manipulation tactic designed to force you to support the political aims of certain factions. While I do support the working class and poor, I, at least, decline to be manipulated. It's a foolish tactic anyway; hammering the general public on guilt and privilege instead of focusing on sympathy and justice simply breeds resentment and will result in them silently sabotaging your agenda.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
It's not about opposing guilt to anger. It's about pointing out that many of the public policies which most increase inequality are sops thrown by the very top to the broad class of well-off salaried workers immediately below them. Read the fine article: it's talking about things like restrictive zoning laws, 529 college-savings plans, and the mortgage-interest tax break. These are state subsidies for the well-off. (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?". Should we first make a nice living in tech, and then have the government write us extra little checks for all the ways we can pass our class down to our children?
- thatwebdude 9y ago
  > (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) I'm not sure it is allowed. There must be some other transaction happening to make this without penalty. [1] Also, why is everyone on this thread [not you] speaking of a 529 as if it's some elite 1% benefit? It's open to anyone. Most states have a $25 minimum, a lot of states have no minimum contribution at all [2]. [1]http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/111008648 http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/11100... [2]http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_question_ids[]=387&page=compare_plan_questions http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_ques... Edit: after some more research, it sounds like it may have been rolled over into an IRA for use with a first-time homebuyer exemption. See (http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html) under "Penalty Exceptions".
- jasode 9y ago
  >The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?" The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work. (The chain of thinking is then: your hard work didn't get you to the position of taking the mortgage deduction; instead it was your luck that did it.) The writer wants workers with 100k salaries to vote for higher taxes on themselves by supporting politicians that promise to remove mortgage deductions and 529 education savings plans. In other words, he has to convince HN programmers making 100k that they are in fact, oppressing the low-income class. (E.g. Those tax deductions for home & college are subverting meritocracy and you should _feel bad_ for taking advantage of them.) Do you think the writer's style of rhetoric was effective at persuasion? Or was he only effective at getting people who already agreed with him to nod in affirmation?
  - DarkKomunalec 9y ago
    "The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work." People shouldn't feel guilty for the advantages their parents and ancestors worked hard to secure for them.

pc86 9y ago

I think the point is that it's a bit of mental gymnastics to rail against "the rich" when you're a senior developer at Netflix making 10x the median household income.

Quarrelsome 9y ago

cause I know the tech industry is "bubbly". Lot of people working in tech don't quite grok how tough it is for others to get by. Lets face it, while we're high enough to see the "real money" we're still a lot higher than everyone else salary and job security wise. What if programmers were a dime a dozen and highly trained social care was where the lucra was at?

ThrowawayR2 9y ago

> Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives? It's a manipulation tactic designed to force you to support the political aims of certain factions. While I do support the working class and poor, I, at least, decline to be manipulated. It's a foolish tactic anyway; hammering the general public on guilt and privilege instead of focusing on sympathy and justice simply breeds resentment and will result in them silently sabotaging your agenda.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

It's not about opposing guilt to anger. It's about pointing out that many of the public policies which most increase inequality are sops thrown by the very top to the broad class of well-off salaried workers immediately below them. Read the fine article: it's talking about things like restrictive zoning laws, 529 college-savings plans, and the mortgage-interest tax break. These are state subsidies for the well-off. (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?". Should we first make a nice living in tech, and then have the government write us extra little checks for all the ways we can pass our class down to our children?

thatwebdude 9y ago
> (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) I'm not sure it is allowed. There must be some other transaction happening to make this without penalty. [1] Also, why is everyone on this thread [not you] speaking of a 529 as if it's some elite 1% benefit? It's open to anyone. Most states have a $25 minimum, a lot of states have no minimum contribution at all [2]. [1]http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/111008648 http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/11100... [2]http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_question_ids[]=387&page=compare_plan_questions http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_ques... Edit: after some more research, it sounds like it may have been rolled over into an IRA for use with a first-time homebuyer exemption. See (http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html) under "Penalty Exceptions".
jasode 9y ago
>The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?" The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work. (The chain of thinking is then: your hard work didn't get you to the position of taking the mortgage deduction; instead it was your luck that did it.) The writer wants workers with 100k salaries to vote for higher taxes on themselves by supporting politicians that promise to remove mortgage deductions and 529 education savings plans. In other words, he has to convince HN programmers making 100k that they are in fact, oppressing the low-income class. (E.g. Those tax deductions for home & college are subverting meritocracy and you should _feel bad_ for taking advantage of them.) Do you think the writer's style of rhetoric was effective at persuasion? Or was he only effective at getting people who already agreed with him to nod in affirmation?
- DarkKomunalec 9y ago
  "The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work." People shouldn't feel guilty for the advantages their parents and ancestors worked hard to secure for them.