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Consider my friend who did as he was told but sadly in his case that was to become one of the very best dancers in his time. Dancing doesn't pay. He now works 1

Consider my friend who did as he was told but sadly in his case that was to become one of the very best dancers in his time. Dancing doesn't pay. He now works 10 hour shifts as a Chef and just about gets by to provide for his family. Conversely I put an equal amount of effort in teaching myself how to code and can pull in over four times the salary he earns with slightly less effort and when I get home my body doesn't feel fatigued. So "hahahahaha", he chose wrong and I chose right? Right? I was just lucky that the money coincided with my interest in tech. Damn straight I feel guilty and what makes me mad is when people claim its about effort and hard work. Sure that's definitely part of the equasion but you can work twice as hard and put in twice as much effort and it doesn't mean a damn if you didn't back the "right" industry horse. Save a thought for those that chose different yet still totally as valid fields like nursing or teaching and appreciate the benefit that tech has "unfairly" brought you. Next time you're up late and working super hard just remember you're not literally cleaning up shit and piss for 1/4 of the money.

DarkKomunalec 9y ago
So while the ultra-rich corrupt democracy and amass ever more power, with increasing numbers of people vulnerable to their every whim, the people who work for a merely comfortable living should feel guilty? Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives?
- pc86 9y ago
  I think the point is that it's a bit of mental gymnastics to rail against "the rich" when you're a senior developer at Netflix making 10x the median household income.
- Quarrelsome 9y ago
  cause I know the tech industry is "bubbly". Lot of people working in tech don't quite grok how tough it is for others to get by. Lets face it, while we're high enough to see the "real money" we're still a lot higher than everyone else salary and job security wise. What if programmers were a dime a dozen and highly trained social care was where the lucra was at?
- ThrowawayR2 9y ago
  > Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives? It's a manipulation tactic designed to force you to support the political aims of certain factions. While I do support the working class and poor, I, at least, decline to be manipulated. It's a foolish tactic anyway; hammering the general public on guilt and privilege instead of focusing on sympathy and justice simply breeds resentment and will result in them silently sabotaging your agenda.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  It's not about opposing guilt to anger. It's about pointing out that many of the public policies which most increase inequality are sops thrown by the very top to the broad class of well-off salaried workers immediately below them. Read the fine article: it's talking about things like restrictive zoning laws, 529 college-savings plans, and the mortgage-interest tax break. These are state subsidies for the well-off. (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?". Should we first make a nice living in tech, and then have the government write us extra little checks for all the ways we can pass our class down to our children?
  - thatwebdude 9y ago
    > (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) I'm not sure it is allowed. There must be some other transaction happening to make this without penalty. [1] Also, why is everyone on this thread [not you] speaking of a 529 as if it's some elite 1% benefit? It's open to anyone. Most states have a $25 minimum, a lot of states have no minimum contribution at all [2]. [1]http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/111008648 http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/11100... [2]http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_question_ids[]=387&page=compare_plan_questions http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_ques... Edit: after some more research, it sounds like it may have been rolled over into an IRA for use with a first-time homebuyer exemption. See (http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html) under "Penalty Exceptions".
  - jasode 9y ago
    >The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?" The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work. (The chain of thinking is then: your hard work didn't get you to the position of taking the mortgage deduction; instead it was your luck that did it.) The writer wants workers with 100k salaries to vote for higher taxes on themselves by supporting politicians that promise to remove mortgage deductions and 529 education savings plans. In other words, he has to convince HN programmers making 100k that they are in fact, oppressing the low-income class. (E.g. Those tax deductions for home & college are subverting meritocracy and you should _feel bad_ for taking advantage of them.) Do you think the writer's style of rhetoric was effective at persuasion? Or was he only effective at getting people who already agreed with him to nod in affirmation?
watty 9y ago
Dancing does pay... if you're good enough. Basketball doesn't pay either unless your good enough and personally I don't think Lebron James or MJ should feel guilty about it. Lucky? Sure. And back to your dancer friend, is he unhappy? If he looked at his risks, potential salaries, and happiness and chose to be a chef and amateur dancer, isn't that ok too? I know many people who chose jobs that aren't their passion (hell, my passion is fishing and we know that doesn't pay). Instead I work a job that I enjoy while making enough money to provide for my family and my hobbies on the side. No, I don't feel guilty. If your passion coincides with a profession that makes $$ consider yourself fortunate.
pc86 9y ago
> it doesn't mean a damn if you didn't back the "right" industry horse Was your friend bamboozled into thinking that he could earn $250k/yr as a dancer? Teaching is one thing - I think most people would like to pay (good) teachers more. Nurses are capable of making quite a bit of money between base salary and overtime, especially at higher levels of education and specialization. Despite what the folks writing VC-funded CRUD apps here would like to think, programming probably has one of the lowest effort-to-payroll ratios around. Most people work harder than us for less money. Part of that's luck but part of it is the market. And part of it is hard work, effort, and hustle. I've worked sanitation jobs before. They suck. They pay next to nothing. But they also require next to nothing aside from the willingness to do the work. They may pay "1/4 of the money" but they require much less than 1/4 of the skill, education, or experience.
- Quarrelsome 9y ago
  > Was your friend bamboozled into thinking that he could earn $250k/yr as a dancer? Its more the old meritocracy adage. "Work hard and you'll be comfortable". Its more than that. Sure he could have made it dancing but not JUST dancing, if he'd gone for more a PR and choreography route, if he'd considered effectively wasting his training on doing something easy like being a backing dancer to a pop star. However all of this is very much "create a successful startup" level than "be a code monkey level". To succeed as a dancer as much as a programmer you really have to go above and beyond. I have worked sanitation before too. Honest work though.
- IanDrake 9y ago
  He was probably told to follow his passion. Probably not good advice. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o
- justin66 9y ago
  > I think most people would like to pay (good) teachers more In that case you're entirely unfamiliar with American conservative rhetoric and policy.
  - 9y ago
mcbruiser3 9y ago
> when people claim its about effort and hard work. it's not just about effort and hard work. there are a lot of other factors, and one of those factors is his decision (for better or worse) to become a dancer vs. a doctor or lawyer or engineer. he's an adult and made his choice. we as a society cannot afford to subsidize everyone's "dream" of being an artist. someone has to actually do the work of moving us forward and keeping the lights on.

DarkKomunalec 9y ago

So while the ultra-rich corrupt democracy and amass ever more power, with increasing numbers of people vulnerable to their every whim, the people who work for a merely comfortable living should feel guilty? Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives?

pc86 9y ago
I think the point is that it's a bit of mental gymnastics to rail against "the rich" when you're a senior developer at Netflix making 10x the median household income.
Quarrelsome 9y ago
cause I know the tech industry is "bubbly". Lot of people working in tech don't quite grok how tough it is for others to get by. Lets face it, while we're high enough to see the "real money" we're still a lot higher than everyone else salary and job security wise. What if programmers were a dime a dozen and highly trained social care was where the lucra was at?
ThrowawayR2 9y ago
> Why this focus on guilt? Are we not allowed to be angry, as long as we still have some shred of comfort in out lives? It's a manipulation tactic designed to force you to support the political aims of certain factions. While I do support the working class and poor, I, at least, decline to be manipulated. It's a foolish tactic anyway; hammering the general public on guilt and privilege instead of focusing on sympathy and justice simply breeds resentment and will result in them silently sabotaging your agenda.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
It's not about opposing guilt to anger. It's about pointing out that many of the public policies which most increase inequality are sops thrown by the very top to the broad class of well-off salaried workers immediately below them. Read the fine article: it's talking about things like restrictive zoning laws, 529 college-savings plans, and the mortgage-interest tax break. These are state subsidies for the well-off. (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?". Should we first make a nice living in tech, and then have the government write us extra little checks for all the ways we can pass our class down to our children?
- thatwebdude 9y ago
  > (Hell, my wife's parents saved up a 529 plan, and then she went to a state school on a full scholarship. Now we're apparently allowed to spend the 529 money to put a down payment on a house as a young couple, without any tax penalty. How is this allowed!?) I'm not sure it is allowed. There must be some other transaction happening to make this without penalty. [1] Also, why is everyone on this thread [not you] speaking of a 529 as if it's some elite 1% benefit? It's open to anyone. Most states have a $25 minimum, a lot of states have no minimum contribution at all [2]. [1]http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/111008648 http://www.montereyherald.com/article/ZZ/20111006/NEWS/11100... [2]http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_question_ids[]=387&page=compare_plan_questions http://www.savingforcollege.com/compare_529_plans/?plan_ques... Edit: after some more research, it sounds like it may have been rolled over into an IRA for use with a first-time homebuyer exemption. See (http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html http://finance.zacks.com/convert-529-ira-10479.html) under "Penalty Exceptions".
- jasode 9y ago
  >The question isn't, "Should people on HN feel guilty?". It's, "should people on HN receive a state subsidy for being fortunate?" The feelings of instilling guilt goes hand-in-hand with convincing the intended audience that they got to their position because of fortune instead of hard work. (The chain of thinking is then: your hard work didn't get you to the position of taking the mortgage deduction; instead it was your luck that did it.) The writer wants workers with 100k salaries to vote for higher taxes on themselves by supporting politicians that promise to remove mortgage deductions and 529 education savings plans. In other words, he has to convince HN programmers making 100k that they are in fact, oppressing the low-income class. (E.g. Those tax deductions for home & college are subverting meritocracy and you should _feel bad_ for taking advantage of them.) Do you think the writer's style of rhetoric was effective at persuasion? Or was he only effective at getting people who already agreed with him to nod in affirmation?

watty 9y ago

Dancing does pay... if you're good enough. Basketball doesn't pay either unless your good enough and personally I don't think Lebron James or MJ should feel guilty about it. Lucky? Sure. And back to your dancer friend, is he unhappy? If he looked at his risks, potential salaries, and happiness and chose to be a chef and amateur dancer, isn't that ok too? I know many people who chose jobs that aren't their passion (hell, my passion is fishing and we know that doesn't pay). Instead I work a job that I enjoy while making enough money to provide for my family and my hobbies on the side. No, I don't feel guilty. If your passion coincides with a profession that makes $$ consider yourself fortunate.

pc86 9y ago

> it doesn't mean a damn if you didn't back the "right" industry horse Was your friend bamboozled into thinking that he could earn $250k/yr as a dancer? Teaching is one thing - I think most people would like to pay (good) teachers more. Nurses are capable of making quite a bit of money between base salary and overtime, especially at higher levels of education and specialization. Despite what the folks writing VC-funded CRUD apps here would like to think, programming probably has one of the lowest effort-to-payroll ratios around. Most people work harder than us for less money. Part of that's luck but part of it is the market. And part of it is hard work, effort, and hustle. I've worked sanitation jobs before. They suck. They pay next to nothing. But they also require next to nothing aside from the willingness to do the work. They may pay "1/4 of the money" but they require much less than 1/4 of the skill, education, or experience.

Quarrelsome 9y ago
> Was your friend bamboozled into thinking that he could earn $250k/yr as a dancer? Its more the old meritocracy adage. "Work hard and you'll be comfortable". Its more than that. Sure he could have made it dancing but not JUST dancing, if he'd gone for more a PR and choreography route, if he'd considered effectively wasting his training on doing something easy like being a backing dancer to a pop star. However all of this is very much "create a successful startup" level than "be a code monkey level". To succeed as a dancer as much as a programmer you really have to go above and beyond. I have worked sanitation before too. Honest work though.
IanDrake 9y ago
He was probably told to follow his passion. Probably not good advice. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o
justin66 9y ago
> I think most people would like to pay (good) teachers more In that case you're entirely unfamiliar with American conservative rhetoric and policy.
- 9y ago

mcbruiser3 9y ago

> when people claim its about effort and hard work. it's not just about effort and hard work. there are a lot of other factors, and one of those factors is his decision (for better or worse) to become a dancer vs. a doctor or lawyer or engineer. he's an adult and made his choice. we as a society cannot afford to subsidize everyone's "dream" of being an artist. someone has to actually do the work of moving us forward and keeping the lights on.