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Not to trivialize her experience with her two daughters, but if I didn't do something because the person that taught me the basics of it at 10 or 11 was terribl

Not to trivialize her experience with her two daughters, but if I didn't do something because the person that taught me the basics of it at 10 or 11 was terrible, I would have a very small range of potential jobs. Nobody I grew up with was taught to code in school. Most teachers were pretty bad - Math and Science particularly; they weren't just bad at the subjects, they were often cruel. Middle school was an awful experience for everyone, I think. That's not a reason not to improve things - I'd love for things to get better for everyone.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 9y ago
Not being taught by school teachers can actually be more beneficial than being taught badly. When nobody taints your experience with a particular subject and you attack the problem yourself, you start neutral. It is curiosity and discipline that drives you forward. If, on the other hand, someone taught you the basics but did this in a terrible way, you associate negative things with the subject. Your curiosity is curbed, you won’t pursue the subject further.
- mirimir 9y ago
  That's how it was for me. For most of my education, the focus in math was very practical. There were proofs in set theory and geometry, for sure. But math was mostly about calculating. Then, at university, the focus in math shifted to pure theory. I was lost. Totally lost. And then I discovered engineering math, and was happy again. So anyway, I wonder if I'd have been better off without so much practical math.
- noobermin 9y ago
  Then the question is how will you know to either pursue something further or not without being exposed to it first? How will you know about category theory or topology without well...learning about something related to topology or categories theory? How will you know that you can or can't pursue it?
rjsw 9y ago
My experience was that biology teachers were universally good as there wasn't much else for them to do, all of mine had done research before becoming teachers. I decided to become a computer programmer at age 10, I'm old enough that none of the careers literature available when I was at school even listed it as a possible job. I can't remember wondering what anyone else thought about my choice.
paganel 9y ago
I had an ok-ish math teacher in middle-school, not bad but not good either, long story short she didn't made to really start understanding and trying to like maths. But I was incredibly lucky that my highschool teacher was the opposite of that, he really made me understand maths (and logical expressions, among other things) and he's definitely one of the main reasons why I chose the STEM route. When I entered computer science school I didn't even know how to program, I learned that afterwards, but I was only able to do that because said teacher had taught me how to approach these type of problems.
monk_e_boy 9y ago
I'm a coder and now a new teacher. Schools would rather employ a good art teacher to teach comp sci than a bad comp sci teacher. Controlling 35 - 40 students is hard. Coders are not naturally good at it. Someone who likes to sit at a PC and read HN and slashdot is not the sort of 'drill sergeant' who is needed to take control of them. My coding skills are not used. The most complex things the students are asked to so are simple loops. So this leads us to Michelles question. How do you get teachers to get girls interested in STEM? The role models are weeded out at the teacher training stage. I would estimate 90% of nerds and coders remove themselves from the teaching profession. Of the other 10%? They find the school system almost impossible to target a student. Say I see the students for 60 minutes a week. Of those 60 minutes, 5min is registering them while they log into the computers. Then we are asked to do a 'starter' something to engage the students with the lesson, that's 10min. Then we teach and the students work. At the end of the lesson we do a plenary, 5 - 10 minutes. So I get about 30 minutes of teacher student time, so a minute per student. How am I supposed to explain to a stroppy 13 year old girl why computing is a good career choice? Or why maths is interesting? In 60 seconds? In my last lesson a boy took a girls coat, so that girls rugby tackled the boy and punched him in the head. I had to drag them apart then wait for someone to come help. This is not uncommon. Imagine telling students how much fun a career in IT is, then tend to shout "This is fucking boring sir" The school system has too many people asking things of it. English lessons. Science. Music. Sports. Tech. Religion. There isn't enough time. There isn't enough money. The type of person that can survive a teaching qualification is not the sort of person who is sitting in an apple conference. Having spent a great deal of time looking at the lack of women in STEM and what teachers can do about it, the most effective solution is to have great women role models come into schools and give talks or help teach. I can not tell you how many hoops I would have to jump through to make this happen. Even if I could find any women role models who would talk in front of a class of students. It would take months of paperwork. It's the sort of 'once a year' event that could take place. It would take the combined effort of my, my manager, the head of department, senior management and the head teacher to be involved. I don't know what the answer is. I don't think anyone does.
- Eridrus 9y ago
  Before getting to the end of your comment I was about to suggest that maybe schools should bring experts in, so I think you're on to something. It's crazy that you need a lot of paperwork for that, even if there are background checks necessary, that seems like the kind of thing that could be made more efficient... with computers ;)

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 9y ago

Not being taught by school teachers can actually be more beneficial than being taught badly. When nobody taints your experience with a particular subject and you attack the problem yourself, you start neutral. It is curiosity and discipline that drives you forward. If, on the other hand, someone taught you the basics but did this in a terrible way, you associate negative things with the subject. Your curiosity is curbed, you won’t pursue the subject further.

mirimir 9y ago
That's how it was for me. For most of my education, the focus in math was very practical. There were proofs in set theory and geometry, for sure. But math was mostly about calculating. Then, at university, the focus in math shifted to pure theory. I was lost. Totally lost. And then I discovered engineering math, and was happy again. So anyway, I wonder if I'd have been better off without so much practical math.
noobermin 9y ago
Then the question is how will you know to either pursue something further or not without being exposed to it first? How will you know about category theory or topology without well...learning about something related to topology or categories theory? How will you know that you can or can't pursue it?

rjsw 9y ago

My experience was that biology teachers were universally good as there wasn't much else for them to do, all of mine had done research before becoming teachers. I decided to become a computer programmer at age 10, I'm old enough that none of the careers literature available when I was at school even listed it as a possible job. I can't remember wondering what anyone else thought about my choice.

paganel 9y ago

I had an ok-ish math teacher in middle-school, not bad but not good either, long story short she didn't made to really start understanding and trying to like maths. But I was incredibly lucky that my highschool teacher was the opposite of that, he really made me understand maths (and logical expressions, among other things) and he's definitely one of the main reasons why I chose the STEM route. When I entered computer science school I didn't even know how to program, I learned that afterwards, but I was only able to do that because said teacher had taught me how to approach these type of problems.

monk_e_boy 9y ago

I'm a coder and now a new teacher. Schools would rather employ a good art teacher to teach comp sci than a bad comp sci teacher. Controlling 35 - 40 students is hard. Coders are not naturally good at it. Someone who likes to sit at a PC and read HN and slashdot is not the sort of 'drill sergeant' who is needed to take control of them. My coding skills are not used. The most complex things the students are asked to so are simple loops. So this leads us to Michelles question. How do you get teachers to get girls interested in STEM? The role models are weeded out at the teacher training stage. I would estimate 90% of nerds and coders remove themselves from the teaching profession. Of the other 10%? They find the school system almost impossible to target a student. Say I see the students for 60 minutes a week. Of those 60 minutes, 5min is registering them while they log into the computers. Then we are asked to do a 'starter' something to engage the students with the lesson, that's 10min. Then we teach and the students work. At the end of the lesson we do a plenary, 5 - 10 minutes. So I get about 30 minutes of teacher student time, so a minute per student. How am I supposed to explain to a stroppy 13 year old girl why computing is a good career choice? Or why maths is interesting? In 60 seconds? In my last lesson a boy took a girls coat, so that girls rugby tackled the boy and punched him in the head. I had to drag them apart then wait for someone to come help. This is not uncommon. Imagine telling students how much fun a career in IT is, then tend to shout "This is fucking boring sir" The school system has too many people asking things of it. English lessons. Science. Music. Sports. Tech. Religion. There isn't enough time. There isn't enough money. The type of person that can survive a teaching qualification is not the sort of person who is sitting in an apple conference. Having spent a great deal of time looking at the lack of women in STEM and what teachers can do about it, the most effective solution is to have great women role models come into schools and give talks or help teach. I can not tell you how many hoops I would have to jump through to make this happen. Even if I could find any women role models who would talk in front of a class of students. It would take months of paperwork. It's the sort of 'once a year' event that could take place. It would take the combined effort of my, my manager, the head of department, senior management and the head teacher to be involved. I don't know what the answer is. I don't think anyone does.

Eridrus 9y ago
Before getting to the end of your comment I was about to suggest that maybe schools should bring experts in, so I think you're on to something. It's crazy that you need a lot of paperwork for that, even if there are background checks necessary, that seems like the kind of thing that could be made more efficient... with computers ;)