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The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights. They're really struggling to get through normal days, requiring constant supervision from full

The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights. They're really struggling to get through normal days, requiring constant supervision from full-time carers 24 hours. And it has to be the same carers that come at the same time every day. Their lives are really shitty, interspersed with small joys.

poizan42 9y ago
Well, sounds like the only people you know to be autistic are low functional... Traits that may be beneficial in milder versions can often be detrimental if too expressed. If you are working with software developers then there's a good chance that some of your colleagues falls on the spectrum. It's probably not something they go around telling people about, assuming they are even themselves aware.
- douche 9y ago
  I sometimes wonder if we sometimes self-label ourselves, in general, as being "on the spectrum" just so we can justify getting pissy when uninteresting people interrupt and harass us while we are trying to concentrate on interesting problems.
  - wbl 9y ago
    I had an IEP because of autism and work in the industry.
  - briholt 9y ago
    I think this is the DSM's criteria for high functioning autism.
    - poizan42 9y ago
      Having difficulty getting back on track after an interruption is part of ADHD (well, more difficulty than the average person, interruptions disrupts everybody's concentration to some degree). There is a high level of comorbidity between Autism Spectrum Disorders and ADHD-PI (formerly known as ADD).
    - watwut 9y ago
      Ok, but some people are jerks or without being autistic. No one likes being interrupted, not just autistic. They just make it while another level. If you act angrily after being interrupted, then people will interrupt you less. People with high social skills do that intentionally for exactly that reason. The difference is in inability to control the bad reaction. Merely being rude and self centered is not enough (autistic come across like self centered, but that is oftentimes unfair).
- bad_user 9y ago
  I think claims about "the spectrum" are often overblown. Most software developers do not exhibit any traits linked to autism.
  - TheDong 9y ago
    I appreciate this carefully cited informative comment where you state your own biased opinion/observations as fact.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Are you claiming that most developers are on the spectrum? That would be quite strong claim.
      - TheDong 9y ago
        No. I don't have enough information to make any such claim. I'm merely asserting that the parent comment also likely isn't backed by enough information to make their claim either. I'll happily be proved wrong by citations in either direction.
        RhysU 9y ago
        Anyone know a study of for on spectrum programmer vs on spectrum other profession?
      - enraged_camel 9y ago
        No, the claim is "most software developers do not exhibit autism symptoms". It was made without supporting evidence.
        sheepmullet 9y ago
        The default position a logical person without evidence to the contrary should take is most software developers are not on the spectrum. General population for men is approx 1 in 42 boys are on the autism spectrum (https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq) There are roughly 2 million Americans on the autism spectrum and roughly 3.6 million software developers. So for the counter claim to be true pretty much every single person with autism in the US must work in Software development.
- watwut 9y ago
  People like to overstate amount of people on the spectrum in programming - and it likely went down as it gained popularity. High functioning autistic are easy bullying target for "alfa geeks" and can't really cope well in companies where culture fit is important. They also have harder time coping with time pressure, working in open space (noise, disruptions), tight agile cooperation (this is two sided hell), have hard time controlling emotions (go into rage), have hard time deal with changes of plans, unexpected and plenty of other situations currently present. I guess it is less bad for them to be in programming then in marketing, but normals still have it better. Also, they are good in some thigs - great with routine, rarely make mistake, rarely inattentive, great memory. Then again, as a rule, they have less good abstract thinking which limits them a lot, goes into rage because programmer on unrelated project used slightly different code style. If we are talking about people who are normally diagnosable, diagnosis is not exactly shock for people who work with them. You may not be able to guess diagnosis, but you are aware that the person is off.
  - lapsock 9y ago
    That's why it's called a spectrum. The people you call "alfa geeks" are probably on the spectrum themselves, but are even higher functioning.
    - watwut 9y ago
      No, they are not. They are highly socially successful and know exactly what gives them praise. They know how to do politics well. They eagerly form cooperating packs. That is opposite of autistic. People on the spectrum are clumsy systematically - agains bosses, against customers, and time it hurts them. Alpha geeks act like jerks to get ahed - put down opposition without needing to argue, protect their social status or raiser popularity by being fun. People on the spectrum are not fun. They act like jerks unintentionally - they don't understand what they are doing.
- y_u_no_rust 9y ago
  Cuck
danellis 9y ago
What do they need supervision of? Perhaps they're things they wouldn't have been expected to do on their own a few thousand years ago anyway. Perhaps they would have had an easier time in an early, small human community.
- watwut 9y ago
  Low functioning autism may mean "bangs head on the table even as blood goes out because routine got interrupted - favourite ipod run out of batteries". Or "goes into epic rage because the cup is not on exact same place as usually - it is 15cm on the left in the same drawer. " It is serious condition. Most would simply die young.
  - qb45 9y ago
    I wonder if it could be a pathologically overblown form of frustration with people not bothering to streamline this "life" thing and make uninteresting, repetitive tasks unobtrusive. I can relate to that :)
sajid 9y ago
I think the argument is that although autism itself might be detrimental, the broad autism phenotype may have proved beneficial in human history.
grandalf 9y ago
> The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights This is not necessarily a counter-argument since it is limited to the sample size of those you know. The argument supposes that there would be enough benefit to the upside traits of autism disorders to keep the genes in the gene pool. Also, it's not clear how the genes work or how the spectrum of autism-related conditions might have offered beneficial side-effects to group survival. Interestingly, I think it follows that only in animals with "culture" would we find such selection. I wonder if it occurs in dolphins or primates, etc.
blunte 9y ago
And quite possibly they have some unrecognized or under(non)represented great skills. Consider how we as humans treat other non-human creatures. Do we consider the intelligence of a chicken, for example? It's inconvenient to do so, as it would suddenly thrust upon us ethical considerations to how we treat them. We (some) would rather just factory farm and eat them. Perhaps because of our own limitations (culling less likely useful streams of thought) we tend to disregard things we don't understand. That does not mean they are lacking in value. It just means we have not made much effort to ascertain their capabilities. Consider this perspective. If you were a stock investor, how would you value a modern Beethoven? You might try to determine the potential value of sales of his creations, but you would likely disregard the non-financial value of his music. Does that mean his music was not worth much?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- vitaminbandit 9y ago
  Don't romanticize what is a huge disability for a great many people. And you're not doing anyone any favors by mentioning the intelligence of chickens to make what you think is a point.
  - kmonad 9y ago
    Yes! It is a disability, not a quirk.
  - blunte 9y ago
    I'm not romanticizing. I'm trying to illustrate that just because the greater "we" cannot ascertain the value of some person (or creature) does not mean the thing is of no value. Humans have a tendency to disregard that which they do not understand.
kmonad 9y ago
I'm glad you are saying this. Today, especially on forums like here and perhaps reddit, autism is almost a badge as it is used frequently simultaneously with high intelligence. Yet, there really is not very clear evidence for this (there is some evidence that genetic patterns between highly intelligent and autistic individuals tend to overlap). I worry about this because it tends to render being autistic 'as not so bad', and downplay that autism is a disability.

poizan42 9y ago

Well, sounds like the only people you know to be autistic are low functional... Traits that may be beneficial in milder versions can often be detrimental if too expressed. If you are working with software developers then there's a good chance that some of your colleagues falls on the spectrum. It's probably not something they go around telling people about, assuming they are even themselves aware.

douche 9y ago
I sometimes wonder if we sometimes self-label ourselves, in general, as being "on the spectrum" just so we can justify getting pissy when uninteresting people interrupt and harass us while we are trying to concentrate on interesting problems.
- wbl 9y ago
  I had an IEP because of autism and work in the industry.
- briholt 9y ago
  I think this is the DSM's criteria for high functioning autism.
  - poizan42 9y ago
    Having difficulty getting back on track after an interruption is part of ADHD (well, more difficulty than the average person, interruptions disrupts everybody's concentration to some degree). There is a high level of comorbidity between Autism Spectrum Disorders and ADHD-PI (formerly known as ADD).
  - watwut 9y ago
    Ok, but some people are jerks or without being autistic. No one likes being interrupted, not just autistic. They just make it while another level. If you act angrily after being interrupted, then people will interrupt you less. People with high social skills do that intentionally for exactly that reason. The difference is in inability to control the bad reaction. Merely being rude and self centered is not enough (autistic come across like self centered, but that is oftentimes unfair).
bad_user 9y ago
I think claims about "the spectrum" are often overblown. Most software developers do not exhibit any traits linked to autism.
- TheDong 9y ago
  I appreciate this carefully cited informative comment where you state your own biased opinion/observations as fact.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Are you claiming that most developers are on the spectrum? That would be quite strong claim.
    - TheDong 9y ago
      No. I don't have enough information to make any such claim. I'm merely asserting that the parent comment also likely isn't backed by enough information to make their claim either. I'll happily be proved wrong by citations in either direction.
      - RhysU 9y ago
        Anyone know a study of for on spectrum programmer vs on spectrum other profession?
    - enraged_camel 9y ago
      No, the claim is "most software developers do not exhibit autism symptoms". It was made without supporting evidence.
      - sheepmullet 9y ago
        The default position a logical person without evidence to the contrary should take is most software developers are not on the spectrum. General population for men is approx 1 in 42 boys are on the autism spectrum (https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq) There are roughly 2 million Americans on the autism spectrum and roughly 3.6 million software developers. So for the counter claim to be true pretty much every single person with autism in the US must work in Software development.
watwut 9y ago
People like to overstate amount of people on the spectrum in programming - and it likely went down as it gained popularity. High functioning autistic are easy bullying target for "alfa geeks" and can't really cope well in companies where culture fit is important. They also have harder time coping with time pressure, working in open space (noise, disruptions), tight agile cooperation (this is two sided hell), have hard time controlling emotions (go into rage), have hard time deal with changes of plans, unexpected and plenty of other situations currently present. I guess it is less bad for them to be in programming then in marketing, but normals still have it better. Also, they are good in some thigs - great with routine, rarely make mistake, rarely inattentive, great memory. Then again, as a rule, they have less good abstract thinking which limits them a lot, goes into rage because programmer on unrelated project used slightly different code style. If we are talking about people who are normally diagnosable, diagnosis is not exactly shock for people who work with them. You may not be able to guess diagnosis, but you are aware that the person is off.
- lapsock 9y ago
  That's why it's called a spectrum. The people you call "alfa geeks" are probably on the spectrum themselves, but are even higher functioning.
  - watwut 9y ago
    No, they are not. They are highly socially successful and know exactly what gives them praise. They know how to do politics well. They eagerly form cooperating packs. That is opposite of autistic. People on the spectrum are clumsy systematically - agains bosses, against customers, and time it hurts them. Alpha geeks act like jerks to get ahed - put down opposition without needing to argue, protect their social status or raiser popularity by being fun. People on the spectrum are not fun. They act like jerks unintentionally - they don't understand what they are doing.
y_u_no_rust 9y ago
Cuck

danellis 9y ago

What do they need supervision of? Perhaps they're things they wouldn't have been expected to do on their own a few thousand years ago anyway. Perhaps they would have had an easier time in an early, small human community.

watwut 9y ago
Low functioning autism may mean "bangs head on the table even as blood goes out because routine got interrupted - favourite ipod run out of batteries". Or "goes into epic rage because the cup is not on exact same place as usually - it is 15cm on the left in the same drawer. " It is serious condition. Most would simply die young.
- qb45 9y ago
  I wonder if it could be a pathologically overblown form of frustration with people not bothering to streamline this "life" thing and make uninteresting, repetitive tasks unobtrusive. I can relate to that :)

sajid 9y ago

I think the argument is that although autism itself might be detrimental, the broad autism phenotype may have proved beneficial in human history.

grandalf 9y ago

> The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights This is not necessarily a counter-argument since it is limited to the sample size of those you know. The argument supposes that there would be enough benefit to the upside traits of autism disorders to keep the genes in the gene pool. Also, it's not clear how the genes work or how the spectrum of autism-related conditions might have offered beneficial side-effects to group survival. Interestingly, I think it follows that only in animals with "culture" would we find such selection. I wonder if it occurs in dolphins or primates, etc.

blunte 9y ago

And quite possibly they have some unrecognized or under(non)represented great skills. Consider how we as humans treat other non-human creatures. Do we consider the intelligence of a chicken, for example? It's inconvenient to do so, as it would suddenly thrust upon us ethical considerations to how we treat them. We (some) would rather just factory farm and eat them. Perhaps because of our own limitations (culling less likely useful streams of thought) we tend to disregard things we don't understand. That does not mean they are lacking in value. It just means we have not made much effort to ascertain their capabilities. Consider this perspective. If you were a stock investor, how would you value a modern Beethoven? You might try to determine the potential value of sales of his creations, but you would likely disregard the non-financial value of his music. Does that mean his music was not worth much?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vitaminbandit 9y ago
Don't romanticize what is a huge disability for a great many people. And you're not doing anyone any favors by mentioning the intelligence of chickens to make what you think is a point.
- kmonad 9y ago
  Yes! It is a disability, not a quirk.
- blunte 9y ago
  I'm not romanticizing. I'm trying to illustrate that just because the greater "we" cannot ascertain the value of some person (or creature) does not mean the thing is of no value. Humans have a tendency to disregard that which they do not understand.

kmonad 9y ago

I'm glad you are saying this. Today, especially on forums like here and perhaps reddit, autism is almost a badge as it is used frequently simultaneously with high intelligence. Yet, there really is not very clear evidence for this (there is some evidence that genetic patterns between highly intelligent and autistic individuals tend to overlap). I worry about this because it tends to render being autistic 'as not so bad', and downplay that autism is a disability.