4 ms·

So in summary, all we need to do to implement basic income is to take money from people trading stuff, owning stuff, selling stuff, borrowing stuff, or emitting

So in summary, all we need to do to implement basic income is to take money from people trading stuff, owning stuff, selling stuff, borrowing stuff, or emitting CO2 (but only if you do it in America). Don't flinch! They'll tax that too.

wavefunction 9y ago
That seems to cover the people who derive the most value from the relatively nice place we inhabit, built on the aggregated effort and toil and misery of all those who have come before.
dbpatterson 9y ago
Or, to summarize, we need to take some of the money from the people who are currently extracting it from everyone else... Money, and wealth, is not owned, it is collectively created. Without collective enforcement of monetary value, currency is useless. Without collective enforcment of property laws, property rights don't exist. The only non-collective value that exists is individual power, usually via violence. Unless you want to live in a society run by armed militias (see, for example, various failed states), you depend on collective enforcement. Taxes are not a matter of taking _back_, they are fees for services rendered for that collective enforcement. Your wealth would not exist without society. How much society charges to allow you to have that wealth is what we, as a society, need to decide.
- nnfy 9y ago
  >Without collective enforcement of monetary value, currency is useless Absolute totalitarian drivel. Currency, like economics in general, is an emergent phenomenon, and does not require any form of enforcement. >Your wealth would not exist without society. Taxes are not a matter of taking _back_, they are fees for services rendered for that collective enforcement. Also nonsense. Again, wealth is an emergent phenomenon, arising from scarcity. More importantly, since these collective behaviors are emergent, I do not necessarily need to be involuntarily forced to pay for them. And, for the record, paying fees following services is literally "taking back." Don't sugar coat taxation.
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- rbritton 9y ago
  But where does it stop? When are people expected to assume a degree of personal responsibility? It may sound cruel, but what value to society are people who mooch off the effort of others and provide nothing of their own? There are 6 million [0] open job positions, surely a person could find something suitable in one of those, even if just a stepping stone? Individuals and businesses extracting wealth by providing a good or service is capitalism. Yes, there are bad apples in the bunch, probably most often those at the highest income levels. But the vast majority of those who are currently taxed for the various welfare services and who would be further taxed to implement a UBI are not in that bunch. What right does a minority of society have to demand a portion of their labor? [0]: https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/job-openings-rose-to-6-point-0-million-in-april-2017.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/job-openings-rose-to-6-poi...
- mcbruiser3 9y ago
  omg I wish I could downvote this 1000x
erpellan 9y ago
Who is this 'they' you speak of? I for one enjoy living in a country with roads, power, drinkable water, no guns, free healthcare and the reasonable expectation that everything will cost roughly the same tomorrow as it did today. Unless you live off the grid, grow your own food, generate your own power and make your own clothes from thread you spun from the sheep you sheared yourself then you are a beneficiary of taxes.

wavefunction 9y ago

That seems to cover the people who derive the most value from the relatively nice place we inhabit, built on the aggregated effort and toil and misery of all those who have come before.

dbpatterson 9y ago

Or, to summarize, we need to take some of the money from the people who are currently extracting it from everyone else... Money, and wealth, is not owned, it is collectively created. Without collective enforcement of monetary value, currency is useless. Without collective enforcment of property laws, property rights don't exist. The only non-collective value that exists is individual power, usually via violence. Unless you want to live in a society run by armed militias (see, for example, various failed states), you depend on collective enforcement. Taxes are not a matter of taking _back_, they are fees for services rendered for that collective enforcement. Your wealth would not exist without society. How much society charges to allow you to have that wealth is what we, as a society, need to decide.

nnfy 9y ago
>Without collective enforcement of monetary value, currency is useless Absolute totalitarian drivel. Currency, like economics in general, is an emergent phenomenon, and does not require any form of enforcement. >Your wealth would not exist without society. Taxes are not a matter of taking _back_, they are fees for services rendered for that collective enforcement. Also nonsense. Again, wealth is an emergent phenomenon, arising from scarcity. More importantly, since these collective behaviors are emergent, I do not necessarily need to be involuntarily forced to pay for them. And, for the record, paying fees following services is literally "taking back." Don't sugar coat taxation.
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rbritton 9y ago
But where does it stop? When are people expected to assume a degree of personal responsibility? It may sound cruel, but what value to society are people who mooch off the effort of others and provide nothing of their own? There are 6 million [0] open job positions, surely a person could find something suitable in one of those, even if just a stepping stone? Individuals and businesses extracting wealth by providing a good or service is capitalism. Yes, there are bad apples in the bunch, probably most often those at the highest income levels. But the vast majority of those who are currently taxed for the various welfare services and who would be further taxed to implement a UBI are not in that bunch. What right does a minority of society have to demand a portion of their labor? [0]: https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/job-openings-rose-to-6-point-0-million-in-april-2017.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/job-openings-rose-to-6-poi...
mcbruiser3 9y ago
omg I wish I could downvote this 1000x

erpellan 9y ago

Who is this 'they' you speak of? I for one enjoy living in a country with roads, power, drinkable water, no guns, free healthcare and the reasonable expectation that everything will cost roughly the same tomorrow as it did today. Unless you live off the grid, grow your own food, generate your own power and make your own clothes from thread you spun from the sheep you sheared yourself then you are a beneficiary of taxes.