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I think you are the first person I've seen speak highly of Inferno. I've played with Plan 9 from time to time, so if you have a moment, can you tell me what you

I think you are the first person I've seen speak highly of Inferno. I've played with Plan 9 from time to time, so if you have a moment, can you tell me what you like about it?

pjmlp 9y ago
Sure, are you aware of Inferno's web site? http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/ http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/ It contains quite some useful information, including the book "Inferno Programming with Limbo" http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/books/inferno_programming_with_limbo/ http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/books/inferno_programming_with_... Being a security oriented developer, I like that they decided to use a managed language for the whole userspace (Limbo) leaving C for the kernel and compatibility with UNIX software. Basically, the distributed computing ideas and Oberon influences from Plan 9, merged with type safety. In a certain way, what Android came to be, almost 20 years before it existed.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  Do you see a difference between a "managed language" vs. isolation (by means of containers and/or VMs). Personally I don't; meaning it should be as good to run software in a jailed environment and not force the choice of language on developers. I am curious to see what others think of this, though.
  - wbl 9y ago
    If I get RCE in your mail client I read your email. Not letting me persist doesn't help much more.
    - bluejekyll 9y ago
      How does the choice of language prevent that? Sure different languages might make that harder, but I don't know of many that don't allow arbitrary code, written by a random developer, to execute poorly defined HTML parser to possibly exec some hostile code. There are facilities and standards in most languages to help prevent this, but can you point out why this is not possible in Limbo? I'm not personally familiar with it.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Sure preventing logical errors is hard, but it is already an improvement that typical C errors aren't possible. Limbo does not support this, but both Java and .NET allow for security control at class and method level, however they tend to be misunderstood by most developers, which don't regularly use such features.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    I see a difference when the language doesn't provide mechanisms to enforce program integrity. With a type safe language, being used alongside isolation mechanisms, I get two layers of protection, at language level and at the sandbox level. Like Android or ChromeOS do with their managed environments + Linux SE and on Samsung's case Knox. If the language is unsafe, everything outside the jail might be safe, but the program integrity or the data inside of the container are exposed to the attackers.
kruhft 9y ago
Inferno is cool.

I think you are the first person I've seen speak highly of Inferno. I've played with Plan 9 from time to time, so if you have a moment, can you tell me what you like about it?

pjmlp 9y ago

Sure, are you aware of Inferno's web site? http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/ http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/ It contains quite some useful information, including the book "Inferno Programming with Limbo" http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/books/inferno_programming_with_limbo/ http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/books/inferno_programming_with_... Being a security oriented developer, I like that they decided to use a managed language for the whole userspace (Limbo) leaving C for the kernel and compatibility with UNIX software. Basically, the distributed computing ideas and Oberon influences from Plan 9, merged with type safety. In a certain way, what Android came to be, almost 20 years before it existed.

bluejekyll 9y ago
Do you see a difference between a "managed language" vs. isolation (by means of containers and/or VMs). Personally I don't; meaning it should be as good to run software in a jailed environment and not force the choice of language on developers. I am curious to see what others think of this, though.
- wbl 9y ago
  If I get RCE in your mail client I read your email. Not letting me persist doesn't help much more.
  - bluejekyll 9y ago
    How does the choice of language prevent that? Sure different languages might make that harder, but I don't know of many that don't allow arbitrary code, written by a random developer, to execute poorly defined HTML parser to possibly exec some hostile code. There are facilities and standards in most languages to help prevent this, but can you point out why this is not possible in Limbo? I'm not personally familiar with it.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Sure preventing logical errors is hard, but it is already an improvement that typical C errors aren't possible. Limbo does not support this, but both Java and .NET allow for security control at class and method level, however they tend to be misunderstood by most developers, which don't regularly use such features.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I see a difference when the language doesn't provide mechanisms to enforce program integrity. With a type safe language, being used alongside isolation mechanisms, I get two layers of protection, at language level and at the sandbox level. Like Android or ChromeOS do with their managed environments + Linux SE and on Samsung's case Knox. If the language is unsafe, everything outside the jail might be safe, but the program integrity or the data inside of the container are exposed to the attackers.

kruhft 9y ago

Inferno is cool.