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SGX, if they allow arbitrary code to be signed, is amazing. It enables remote trust. You could execute jobs "in the cloud" without anyone being able to see your

SGX, if they allow arbitrary code to be signed, is amazing. It enables remote trust. You could execute jobs "in the cloud" without anyone being able to see your data. You could write a known-correct coin tumbler or trading platform. If it does only get locked to a few code authors, that would be a tremendous shame.

woah 9y ago
If Intel is the one source of ultimate trust, why not just run your secure whatever on Intel's servers? Seems a lot less complex than jumping through all these SGX hoops.
- 801699 9y ago
  companies that make the bios were* the other sources of "ultimate trust". why not let them... *then came uefi. hoop-jumping never a problem with the i.t. market. more complexity is fine so long as managed by someone else. only the sales pitch needs to be simple. why is it unfathomable that users could only trust themselves and other users? continual push toward more complexity helps keep users from ever believing this is achievable.
SXX 9y ago
Yeah it's will bring new amazing spyware and ransomware on millions of PCs.
- mycall 9y ago
  Or plausible deniability.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  Can you explain how, exactly? Spyware would need to call out to system APIs to do anything useful, and that's not something that can be done inside an enclave. Sure, it'd let you be a bit sloppier with randomware, not needing public key crypto to make it all work. Not really a huge deal.
  - SXX 9y ago
    Yes I can. In past there was many cases when normal software and even distributed drivers contained different kind of malware. After some point someone find it and it's become detectable, there was scandal and way to remove it. Also there was very serious risk that if some company put backdoor into their software it's will be found and company will be sued at least. If something like SGX become publicly available then a lot of proprietary software and content manufacturers going to use it for DRM purposes. So efficiently it's will be everywhere. Now imagine that every company can put sleeping backdoor in their software that can't be found by reverse engineering. Then they can activate it on demand for purposes of industrial espionage. Or they can simply ship own version of backdoor to ever customer and then pretend it's was some "bug" when someone detected it's activity.
    - MichaelGG 9y ago
      I think you might not understand SGX's capability. It's just a compute kernel. So if they're taking data from your system, that's still very visible. And if they are sending data, that's also visible. So, sure, it's handy to hide logic. So the WannaCry thing, you'd be able to see it does DNS queries, but not how it determined a certain outcome based on the inputs. But you can't hide, for instance, a keylogger.
      - SXX 9y ago
        I perfectly understand what you pointing to, but problem of black box running in every piece of software is massive. Anyone could use it to implement remote backdoor in software and then pretend it's just a DRM that talking with licensing server. Yeah it's could be detected when it's start to be active, but it's doesn't have to. It's could be idle on PC for years undetected just waiting for remote command, trigger or special payload just for you. PS: Also fact that secure enclave itself can't access system API mean nothing because half of software already have interpreters in it as well as frameworks for every possible activity bad or good.
        johncolanduoni 9y ago

woah 9y ago

If Intel is the one source of ultimate trust, why not just run your secure whatever on Intel's servers? Seems a lot less complex than jumping through all these SGX hoops.

801699 9y ago
companies that make the bios were* the other sources of "ultimate trust". why not let them... *then came uefi. hoop-jumping never a problem with the i.t. market. more complexity is fine so long as managed by someone else. only the sales pitch needs to be simple. why is it unfathomable that users could only trust themselves and other users? continual push toward more complexity helps keep users from ever believing this is achievable.

SXX 9y ago

Yeah it's will bring new amazing spyware and ransomware on millions of PCs.

mycall 9y ago
Or plausible deniability.
MichaelGG 9y ago
Can you explain how, exactly? Spyware would need to call out to system APIs to do anything useful, and that's not something that can be done inside an enclave. Sure, it'd let you be a bit sloppier with randomware, not needing public key crypto to make it all work. Not really a huge deal.
- SXX 9y ago
  Yes I can. In past there was many cases when normal software and even distributed drivers contained different kind of malware. After some point someone find it and it's become detectable, there was scandal and way to remove it. Also there was very serious risk that if some company put backdoor into their software it's will be found and company will be sued at least. If something like SGX become publicly available then a lot of proprietary software and content manufacturers going to use it for DRM purposes. So efficiently it's will be everywhere. Now imagine that every company can put sleeping backdoor in their software that can't be found by reverse engineering. Then they can activate it on demand for purposes of industrial espionage. Or they can simply ship own version of backdoor to ever customer and then pretend it's was some "bug" when someone detected it's activity.
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    I think you might not understand SGX's capability. It's just a compute kernel. So if they're taking data from your system, that's still very visible. And if they are sending data, that's also visible. So, sure, it's handy to hide logic. So the WannaCry thing, you'd be able to see it does DNS queries, but not how it determined a certain outcome based on the inputs. But you can't hide, for instance, a keylogger.
    - SXX 9y ago
      I perfectly understand what you pointing to, but problem of black box running in every piece of software is massive. Anyone could use it to implement remote backdoor in software and then pretend it's just a DRM that talking with licensing server. Yeah it's could be detected when it's start to be active, but it's doesn't have to. It's could be idle on PC for years undetected just waiting for remote command, trigger or special payload just for you. PS: Also fact that secure enclave itself can't access system API mean nothing because half of software already have interpreters in it as well as frameworks for every possible activity bad or good.
      - johncolanduoni 9y ago