5 ms·

Athens, Sparta and Rome: The Ancient Election

49 points by diodorus 9y ago

stygiansonic 9y ago
For reference, the author, Mary Beard, is a renowned classicist with many interesting historical shows produced by the BBC: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g
- microtherion 9y ago
  She also wrote some quite accessible books: https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-History-Ancient-Mary-Beard-ebook/dp/B0108U7IHO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497055074&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+beard https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-History-Ancient-Mary-Beard-ebook...
Torwald 9y ago
>in Sparta they did it by shouting (loudest won — which the Athenians thought very weird) I don't know why the Athenians thought this to be weird, I guess they had their reasons. But I can think of one benefit of the Spartanian way. If you raise hands, you can quickly change when you see what others are doing. When you shout, you have to inhale as much as you can to shout as loud as you can. You first have to make up your mind, before you can hear others.
- willvarfar 9y ago
  Sounds like 'sizism' to me.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    Election by acclamation isn't a contest among the candidates to see who can shout the loudest. It's a contest to see who gets more support (shouting) from the audience.
- tpeo 9y ago
  Maybe they "thought" it was "weird" retroactively after the Peloponnesian War. Athens was mishandled pretty badly after it's defeat by the pro-Spartan government of the Thirty Tyrants. That on top of being at war with Sparta for more than twenty years would have made them pretty averse to anything Spartan.
  - mmanfrin 9y ago
    Athens was mishandled pretty badly prior to the defeat as well, but that one is on them. Ostracizing the lead architect of an invasion right before the invasion is not a smart move when you've got an adversary willing to hire him to plan the defense.
    - eveningcoffee 9y ago
      Another slightly similar situation was the loss of Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban
      - Rotten194 9y ago
        Constantinople was already doomed to fall before 1453. The 4th crusade hollowed out the city, and even after being retaken it was never the same -- by 1453, it was an island in a sea of Ottoman territory.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Even to this day some forms of parliamentary systems use voice voting only going to a show of hands or card votes if the outcome is not obvious
simonsarris 9y ago
I'm surprised that there's no mention of sortition, the electing of people by random lottery. Lots of people (including Aristotle and many Athenians) thought that true democracy was this kind of election by random lot, not by voting. Voting is just begging for corruption. Most Athenian magistrates and juries were picked by sortition. Aristotle: > Democracy arose from the idea that those who are equal in any respect are equal absolutely. All are alike free, therefore they claim that all are free absolutely... The next is when the democrats, on the grounds that they are all equal, claim equal participation in everything. > It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and as oligarchic when they are filled by election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
- gumby 9y ago
  I think we've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is unqualified for the job and doesn't want the job is given it. In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven not to be a particularly good system. (I've never been a fan of Aristotle anyway)
  - comicjk 9y ago
    An executive picked by sortition is indeed risky. A legislature or jury filled by sortition is workable, though, because of regression to the mean.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >I think we've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is unqualified for the job and doesn't want the job is given it. We all also seen what it looks when people qualified AND wanting the job were given it -- we have been seeing that for centuries and it's not pleasant either. >In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven not to be a particularly good system. No, they are not. Sortition must be random in background and circumstances among the represented people. Hereditary office is the least random way of distributing power. Even democratic elections bring more randomness to the pool.
- 9y ago
abecedarius 9y ago
"Info tech of ancient democracy": http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.html http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.ht...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

49 points by diodorus 9y ago

For reference, the author, Mary Beard, is a renowned classicist with many interesting historical shows produced by the BBC: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYjnRAFFy4g

microtherion 9y ago
She also wrote some quite accessible books: https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-History-Ancient-Mary-Beard-ebook/dp/B0108U7IHO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497055074&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+beard https://www.amazon.com/SPQR-History-Ancient-Mary-Beard-ebook...

Torwald 9y ago

>in Sparta they did it by shouting (loudest won — which the Athenians thought very weird) I don't know why the Athenians thought this to be weird, I guess they had their reasons. But I can think of one benefit of the Spartanian way. If you raise hands, you can quickly change when you see what others are doing. When you shout, you have to inhale as much as you can to shout as loud as you can. You first have to make up your mind, before you can hear others.

willvarfar 9y ago
Sounds like 'sizism' to me.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  Election by acclamation isn't a contest among the candidates to see who can shout the loudest. It's a contest to see who gets more support (shouting) from the audience.
tpeo 9y ago
Maybe they "thought" it was "weird" retroactively after the Peloponnesian War. Athens was mishandled pretty badly after it's defeat by the pro-Spartan government of the Thirty Tyrants. That on top of being at war with Sparta for more than twenty years would have made them pretty averse to anything Spartan.
- mmanfrin 9y ago
  Athens was mishandled pretty badly prior to the defeat as well, but that one is on them. Ostracizing the lead architect of an invasion right before the invasion is not a smart move when you've got an adversary willing to hire him to plan the defense.
  - eveningcoffee 9y ago
    Another slightly similar situation was the loss of Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban
    - Rotten194 9y ago
      Constantinople was already doomed to fall before 1453. The 4th crusade hollowed out the city, and even after being retaken it was never the same -- by 1453, it was an island in a sea of Ottoman territory.
walshemj 9y ago
Even to this day some forms of parliamentary systems use voice voting only going to a show of hands or card votes if the outcome is not obvious

simonsarris 9y ago

I'm surprised that there's no mention of sortition, the electing of people by random lottery. Lots of people (including Aristotle and many Athenians) thought that true democracy was this kind of election by random lot, not by voting. Voting is just begging for corruption. Most Athenian magistrates and juries were picked by sortition. Aristotle: > Democracy arose from the idea that those who are equal in any respect are equal absolutely. All are alike free, therefore they claim that all are free absolutely... The next is when the democrats, on the grounds that they are all equal, claim equal participation in everything. > It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and as oligarchic when they are filled by election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

gumby 9y ago
I think we've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is unqualified for the job and doesn't want the job is given it. In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven not to be a particularly good system. (I've never been a fan of Aristotle anyway)
- comicjk 9y ago
  An executive picked by sortition is indeed risky. A legislature or jury filled by sortition is workable, though, because of regression to the mean.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I think we've all now seen what it looks like when someone who is unqualified for the job and doesn't want the job is given it. We all also seen what it looks when people qualified AND wanting the job were given it -- we have been seeing that for centuries and it's not pleasant either. >In fact hereditary offices are a form of sortition, and they have proven not to be a particularly good system. No, they are not. Sortition must be random in background and circumstances among the represented people. Hereditary office is the least random way of distributing power. Even democratic elections bring more randomness to the pool.
9y ago

abecedarius 9y ago

"Info tech of ancient democracy": http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.html http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.ht...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]